Private vs. Public Healthcare vs skateboarding...

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Slim

the lowest cost decent HMO plan available in the San Francisco area is $1200 a month for a family! That represents roughly 25% of my after-tax salary.

That's harsh! I feel very lucky to live here.

[doxastic]

Originally Posted by pollox87

passively generalizes uninsured as "bums"

Passive or Active? Who gives a ####? It's still calling the uninsured bums. If he hadn't retracted the plurality of the original statement I'd say enough #### to get me banded from SF.

And any of you who do think the uninsured are bums, go #### YOURSELF!

4 years ago my doctor told me I either had cancer or aids because there's no other explaination for why my immune system was breaking down. The only options were test for aids (which I did and am negative) and a whole crap load of different kinds of cancers OR just ride it out. I always thought the guy was a bit of a quack, so I decided to ride it out. It's been 4 years and I'm not dead. I always wonder when I might lose 20 lbs in a month and have a malignent tumor all the sudden. But that's the life I live because of ####s like you. Insurance companies drain so much money out of the health insurance industry we could drastically drop the price of healthcare by moving to a universal system.

[funkyphreakout]

Originally Posted by pirateswin

This is true. Many trauma center ER's have standard wait times around 6-8 hours because people cannot (and sometimes just don't) get primary care. People use/abuse Emergency Departments whenever it's near impossible to get into a clinic or in to see a family doctor.

In all fairness to most ERs, those waits are appropriate for the "pain" the patient feels. It's called triage, and it's just one of those things that has to happen. Otherwise you'd have the car accident victim who's losing blood at a rate measured in pints be stuck waiting for 2 hours before he gets any service. Obviously they should be thrown to the front of the line.

Maybe I've been lucky, but the only times I've been in a hospital in the past 6 years been half emergencies (i.e. split eyebrow, kidney stone, UTI following kidney stone and I only went to get some antibiotics so I didn't feel like I had to piss like a racehorse every 30 seconds) All were situations in which I would have really appreciated service within a day, but was very cognizant that my symptoms weren't worthy of the ERs time until they could fit me in. I can't IMAGINE going to an ER for something that didn't need resolution within the next 2 days, and even in that I realize I don't truly have an emegency. (Mother is a nurse, leads to "walk it off" mentality for lots of stuff)

Socialized healthcare has plenty of kinks in itself, as Mr. Brooke himself pointed out. A whole 'nother can of worms, especially when run by cumbersome bureaucracies that make up most governments.

And while I'm not liberal and don't really trust any of the executive or legislative branches in this country of the USA, all I can REALLY contribute to this topic is this. Greater than $300,000,000,000 have been spent bringing democracy to those who don't want it and having guys my age getting their asses shot off and limbs detonated. Imagine if that Three Hundred BILLION had been spent towards establishing a socialized healthcare system (among many other useful ideas.)

HEAVENS DO I LOVE MY LEADERS, THEY SURE DO REPRESENT ME.

And as final thought, especially to those who think we should do more for the poor in general... my mom works as a neonatal nurse in a poorer part of Orlando. She sees "poor" families come in to deliver another kid so their welfare check gets bumped up another level due to the amount they have per kid. Then these families file for funds to pay for formula milk (expensive!) while they continue to breast feed and use the check towards other "necessities" such as cigarettes. Meanwhile, the baby-daddy is making a call on his new RAZR with rhinestones. This happens for the majority of welfare claiming patients. A lifetime sucking on the teat of taxpayers.
(I.E. Kill off welfare, and social security, and we could probably swing free healthcare for alot of heavy illnesses by next week)

Makes a guy want to cheat on his taxes, no?

FIN RANT

[Brian Holden]

does anyone know about health insurance in switzlerland? i dnk y but I want to live there and ride the hills alll day

[revzack]

Wow, i cannot imagine all the Californians wanting govt health care. I mean they have it bad, 10% state tax on top of federal taxes. that would mean working 5-6 months a yr for Uncle Sam. That sucks. Everything cost more in Cali because they are trying to take care of everyone. I think the thing that most people dont understand is that LIFE AINT FAIR. If you go to an er and your sick they will take you. Yes it will cost money, but we have some of the best doctors in the world. You get fixed and worry about the money later if you must. I have seen English peoples teeth and that is another reason i dont want public healthcare for everyone.

Zack

[doxastic]

Originally Posted by revzack

Wow, i cannot imagine all the Californians wanting govt health care. I mean they have it bad, 10% state tax on top of federal taxes. that would mean working 5-6 months a yr for Uncle Sam. That sucks. Everything cost more in Cali because they are trying to take care of everyone. I think the thing that most people dont understand is that LIFE AINT FAIR. If you go to an er and your sick they will take you. Yes it will cost money, but we have some of the best doctors in the world. You get fixed and worry about the money later if you must. I have seen English peoples teeth and that is another reason i dont want public healthcare for everyone.

Zack

Of course you are willing to trade extremely good dental care for life saving care. I find it very interesting that your concern for essential heathcare is prempted by your concern for good teeth. I pressume it's because you don't have to worry about it. And yeah, life ain't fair. But, this ain't about fairness. It's about the things we all should have simply because we are born. For those who haven't spent much of their life struggling, it's easy to say the types of things you tout. We have the resources, it doesn't cost that much more, so should we do it? Of course not. Because the propaganda of the rich has sucessfully shaped how you think. And who cares about us 30 million people? We're mostly deadbeats and poor/middle-income, right? The government shouldn't care about us because their affection is directly related to my income. People like you make me hate the country in which I was born and force me to question the overall intelligence of the nation that's supposed to be among the top.


Edit: Nevermind, it's about 47 million without any health coverage. This number doesn't include people like my father who's health coverage is beyond insufficient. This number is greater than the total population of Canada!

[funkyphreakout]

Originally Posted by doxastic

People like you make me hate the country in which I was born and force me to question the overall intelligence of the nation that's supposed to be among the top.

Hey now, I would think it would be fairly clear now that humanity really isn't worth all the fuss. Hell, 4 years in a fairly safe college town and I already ain't too keen on the average human.

[pollox87]

Originally Posted by doxastic

Passive or Active? Who gives a ####? It's still calling the uninsured bums. If he hadn't retracted the plurality of the original statement I'd say enough #### to get me banded from SF.

And any of you who do think the uninsured are bums, go #### YOURSELF!

4 years ago my doctor told me I either had cancer or aids because there's no other explaination for why my immune system was breaking down. The only options were test for aids (which I did and am negative) and a whole crap load of different kinds of cancers OR just ride it out. I always thought the guy was a bit of a quack, so I decided to ride it out. It's been 4 years and I'm not dead. I always wonder when I might lose 20 lbs in a month and have a malignent tumor all the sudden. But that's the life I live because of ####s like you. Insurance companies drain so much money out of the health insurance industry we could drastically drop the price of healthcare by moving to a universal system.

You missed the point of my post entirely and focused on one phrase, which acually was the start of this whole "bum" debate.

And also it does matter that it was passive. By saying "uninsured bums like me" he litterally meant he is (or was) a bum and he was also uninsured. He never said there was any correlation between the two, only that he was both. The intent of the phrase was at worse vauge, and he has explained he meant nothing bad by it.

and by what do you mean "because of ####s like me"? All i did was point out some hypocrocy on the internet by a different user. You dont even know what I believe. Also, I have little control over what healthcare system this country uses, and if it were up to be it wouldnt be this one! The best hope I have is looking back at all our nations historical problems and thinking to myself, wow healthcare isnt really a big deal when you compare it to people owning people, at least we seem to be moving in the right direction. I hope my grandkids will be able to look back at my time and say "wow, Im glad I didnt live back then when healthcare sucked."

[pirateswin]

Originally Posted by funkyphreakout

In all fairness to most ERs, those waits are appropriate for the "pain" the patient feels. It's called triage, and it's just one of those things that has to happen. Otherwise you'd have the car accident victim who's losing blood at a rate measured in pints be stuck waiting for 2 hours before he gets any service. Obviously they should be thrown to the front of the line.

Obviously. That's why I was clear in saying trauma centers, because those are the ones that constantly have choppers and ambulances coming in with traumas and the more severe cases. Those always come first, and other people end up waiting for a long time. They then end up complaining for how long they had to wait while true emergencies are keeping the workers busy in the back.

It's evident how many more non-critical emergencies ERs are seeing when you look at the rising patient load of the fast track (or "express care") sections. They handle non-emergencies such as rashes, coughs, simple fractures and sprains, etc.

Also, stop all the stupid bickering here. I know it's just an online discussion, but have the decency to show common respect for each other. It's not getting along that has kept things from getting better in the U.S. medical system. And maybe greed from the insurance companies, I dunno.

[karows]

I agree with many of the posts in this thread about the support of Universal Health Care. Given the present private system I have the following advice. As a Clinical Social Worker in a major Emergency and Trauma Center the people who I see that have real financial trouble are those who make income above the poverty level and who have no insurance and who are not eligible for Medicaid. Quite often its a young healthy kid just starting out in his work and for whatever reason does not have insurance as an option such as performing free lance work. A basic ER visit with X-Rays is going to run several hundreds of dollars. Fractured bones are in the thousands. Also, those without insurance are charged the full charges of services versus the lower contracted rates that are contracted with insurance companies. If you are in this situation and you've exhausted programs like Medicaid inquire about the Hospital's Charity Care Programs. They are usually willing to work with you in getting your bill down, but start the process early. Also, most pharmaceutical companies have prescription assistance programs that are not advertised but can be accessed through their web sites. When in doubt or you have questions in navigating a health systems quagmire ask to see the Out-Patient Social Worker at a given hospital when you go for a follow-up visit.

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[revzack]

Chris,

You know what they say, leg bone connected to the neck bone. In other words something overlooked as simple as teeth kills alot of people. An infection in your teeth can easily spread to your heart. I dont have dental insurance either, i was trying to make a point. As far as i know, nowhere in the constitution does it say you have the right to free health coverage. If i missed that please point it out to me. If you do not like your country because, others have different view points then you have deeper issues. Just take a trip to most any other, i bet you would find living in most other countries to be alot more restrictive. I for one could not live in any other country. Things we take for granted here, dont exist there. No matter what you think, I believe this is the greatest country in the world.

Z

[bean-a-reano]

Wow #### is getting deep in here. This is how I get down. I have a crappy job that pays less than slinging burgers at Mickey Ds. However it has good health insurance. This is the trade off.

[funkyphreakout]

Originally Posted by Joe

No fault, no blame works like this: You can't sue anyone. Someone knocks you off your board, you can't sue them, but ACC pays for you healthcare etc. Lawyers in New Zealand don't chase ambulances or hustle insurance companies.

And you guys have a beautiful country to boot! What exactly do I have to do to get an extended visa?

[chicagolongboards]

Let me just say that the grass is always greener on the other side.

[phidauex]

America is a good country, which is why I still live here. But it could be better. We do a lot of things that weren't in the constitution because we've learned a few things in over 200 years (we've forgotten a lot too). The constitution doesn't give women or black people the right to vote, but I'm pretty glad we changed that, for instance.

Life isn't fair, but part of the idea of a functioning civilization is that the combined action of the people makes a better life for everyone. A big problem in Iraq right now is that people aren't safe, for lots of reasons, and so the government is basically gridlocked. If people aren't safe, then they don't want to talk about taxes, elections, laws, road maintainence, etc. They only want safety. Once you have that, then you can start working on other things.

Our nation is the same way. When you are sick, and can't get care, then you aren't going to spend any of your time being a productive human being, or worrying about other issues. When you have a nation where nearly 50 million (about 15%) of its population can't get medical care, thats 15% of the population that isn't in a position to be as involved as they should be.

Like I said before, essential services, such as healthcare, should be the basic standard. When you are born in America, you get certain rights, and I think the ability to be healthy is one of those rights you should get. Life isn't fair, and not everyone can have new tennis shoes. Thats OK. But everyone should get medicine.

Also, here is a purely economic situation to explain part of why 'welfare systems' can make great financial sense to a community.

A few years ago a man named Murray died in Las Vegas. Murray was a homeless man, and a heavy drinker. Every few weeks, Murray would arrive in the ER. Maybe he was beaten up. Or hit by a car. Or he has pneumonia. Or an infected wound. Etc. He was a nice man, and everyone liked him, but for 10 years before his death, he lived on the dangerous streets, and arrived with acute medical conditions constantly. He paid for none of them, of course.

At the time of his death, the hospital calculated that he had racked up over one million dollars in medical bills, now to be fronted by the state. Thats one hundred thousand dollars per year he was on the streets. That is the cost of homelessness, one hundred thousand dollars per year. If the state had chosen to pay 12,000$ a year to give him a key to an apartment, and 5,000$ a year for his health insurance, then he could have lived the rest of his life on welfare, and it STILL would have cost less than keeping him on the street. Pure economics!

So this is actually happening in some areas. Denver has a pilot program where they take chronic homeless people, pay for their apartment and healthcare, and require only one thing: go to their regular checkups, and do what the doctor says. No work requirements, no behavior requirements, no job training requirements, nothing. Just go to the doctor for your checkups. It seems dumb at first, to pay all this money for someone who doesn't 'deserve' it. But in the end, it saves lots of money! These people aren't showing up to the ER after getting run over by a trash truck, or after getting pneumonia in the street, or getting beaten up in the alley, etc. The money saved in traumas and untreated medical conditions pays for their apartment and doctor visits ten times over. Makes great financial sense, and it keeps people healthier.. That should appeal to anyone.

peace,
sam

[Joe]

Originally Posted by funkyphreakout

And you guys have a beautiful country to boot! What exactly do I have to do to get an extended visa?

I don't know, but if you work in IT (and some other 'desired' fields) it's easier. It works on a point system: you get more points if you're young, qualified, have work experience, speak English (I think). Check out http://www.movingtonz.com/ and http://www.move2nz.com/. If you get serious about it then check http://www.immigration.govt.nz/

New Zealand need more Longboarders! (although I don't think immigration gives you any more points for it)

[funkyphreakout]

Now now, everyone... I'm not trashing America in any way. I love my country, I just also love sweeping vistas, undeveloped land, sparsely populated shorelines, and a general low population density.

I don't hate people, I just don't like them in hordes.

[phidauex]

I actually looked into emmigration to NZ at one point.. What a beautiful place! I recall estimating that I didn't get enough 'points' to be accepted, but I could estimate again, its been a few years..

peace,
sam

[Joe]

The points system seems to change at the whim of the immigration and labour ministers, depending on which issue is in the media.

[sk8rs_dad]

Thats one hundred thousand dollars per year he was on the streets. That is the cost of homelessness, one hundred thousand dollars per year. If the state had chosen to pay 12,000$ a year to give him a key to an apartment, and 5,000$ a year for his health insurance, then he could have lived the rest of his life on welfare, and it STILL would have cost less than keeping him on the street. Pure economics!

Pure economics, but not quite as simple as illustrated. The $100,000 per year was being spent again by the health care providers, in salaries, medical supplies, and profits. A significant amount of that money flows back into the community. So whether a little money flows to a landlord, or a lot of money flows to a health care provider, it may have the same net effect on the overall economy. Granted, it makes a big difference to an individual, but less so for a municipality and even less for a country the size of the States.

The last 10 years of a person's life represent the biggest expense to the health care system. It's like car maintenance. New cars don't require much maintenance, but as they age and parts start wearing out the cost goes up and the value of the repair (in terms of prolonged life) goes down, especially once rust gets a toehold on the vehicle. I'm NOT advocating disposing of elderly and infirm humans, but you have to admit that prolonging their lives can't be justified by economics.

Still, I think Denver's pilot program is a worthwhile humanitarian project.