Private vs. Public Healthcare vs skateboarding...

[skategeezer]

I live in Canada...they tax the crap out of us, but healthcare is free...good luck getting a hip replacement quickly, but if you fall and bash your head, you're covered. In the USA, if you don't have medical insurance, you have problems...as in this post from skull and bones skateboarding will attest to...

anyone else want to chime in?

Hey guys, I've got a problem I'd like some advice on. Over the past few months I've had a couple of skating accidents that have forced me to put up my deck for a while. The first two were bad, but nothing too crazy. They didn't keep me off the board, just out of the pool for a month. About two months goes by and I managed to mess myself up pretty good. I can finally type with both hands now, but It'll be a few months before I can even think about skating the pool again.

That's only half my worries right now. The hosptial bills are pilling up and the bills are crazy expensive (no insurance). The ER room knocked 75% off their bill because of not having insurance, but it's still expensive as hell and the ER doctor and x-ray people don't care about insurance and want all the money. They tell me to make payments, but that will only slow down the extraction of thousands of dollars I don't have from my pocket.

I'm sure other Skull and Bones members have been in my shoes before, so I'm asking for your advice. Any tips or tricks to wrestle down the cost of these bills or make them go away? I really don't want to quit skating.

[Directive0]

When people post on here talking about what a "tragedy" it is that their board got run over, and some people get mad and tell them to suck it up, its because of REAL tragedies like this! I think this is the saddest thing I've EVER read!!! I wish that guy the best of luck!!

[Chimpeach]

(not really skate related)
In the U.S. the number one cause of bankruptcy is medical expenses...sad.

Two winters ago I was visiting family out of state when I had to go to the hospital for severe stomach pains. They ran a bunch of tests (CT scan, xrays, blood tests) and all they could see was that I had a much too high white blood cell count. So a week later I was back home, the pain went away for like 2 days and then it was back again. Was put in the hospital and the doctor here found out that I HAD appendicitis and that my appendix had exploded since then (which caused the pain to go away temporarily). So I had to have emergency surgery to get the nasty juices that were floating around my stomach. Like four hours of surgery and a week stay later I was okay.

Point is I HAD to have the surgery or I would have died. The hospital bill totaled more that $50,000. Luckily my family had insurance.

I've heard the argument that all the good doctors flock to the U.S. because their wages are lowered in a country, like Canada, where the health care is free. But it just seems wrong that people are constantly going bankrupt in the USA when a country like Cuba has free health care.

[dcphotos]

Yeah it's crazy. We have the best health care, but not everyone can get it. Guys like this one wind up having to file bankruptcy, but tha'ts not the end of everything for them. They can recover eventually. Thing is, most people that have jobs have insurance or can get it. I probably wouldn't do half the stuff I do if I didn't have it. Presription drugs and health care care both cost more than what they do in Canada because almost everyone has coverage, which means insurance cost more, and it's a mess of a situation.

[phidauex]

I don't want to get political, but I'll still point out that it is surprising that a place can call itself first world while it's citizens die because they can't get basic healthcare. Kind of confusing. Also, let it be noted that nearly every doctor I've ever spoken to supports universal healthcare. I'd totally pay more taxes to get it. I've got a friend who is giving birth at home because she can't afford the hospital bills. WTF? Is this somalia?

I've got a friend who recently got some severe burns without insurance. The ER ####ed him over, they charged a ton, and actually provided really BAD care. He went to the hospital burn clinic for his follow up treatments, and the burn clinic doctor said, "WHAT did they tell you to do??? Stop taking those antibiotics right now, and let me see what they did to your arm." They prescribed him unnecessary antibiotics (that cost a fortune, btw), that can actually slow burn healing down, they didn't clean his wounds properly, and they gave him bad burn care advice. He's got a tolerance to morphine, and it doesn't work on him. He knows this from several other hospital visits. But even after he told them that, they tried it three times (at over 100$ a pop), and none of them had any affect on his pain.

Fortunately, the burn ward people knew what they were doing, and gave him training on how to debreed his burn, and apply the wrappings himself, or with the help of his girlfriend, so he wouldn't have to make as many trips. He's a smart guy, and picked it all up quick.

Anyway, the important part, for your friend's case, is that you can make your payments basically as small as you want... As long as you are paying them something, they can't really complain. My friend spoke with the hospital admins, explained that he didn't have insurance and was between jobs, and they got his payment down to something like no interest, 10$ a month. It still sucks, but thats very managable...

Our healthcare in the US is based on the "Middle Class Myth" that everyone who tries can get a full time job with healthcare, and that if you don't have that, its because you are a bum who isn't trying. The fake american dream. Our unemployment is at record lows, but still, over 46 million americans can't get healthcare because the jobs available are part time, or don't offer benefits. It's class warfare at its finest, and its ruining the lives of a lot of good people.

Ok, rant over... Suggestion... Have him talk to the hospital administration to see what they can do to help his situation.. They probably won't forgive anything, but they might be able to work out a really managable payment plan. Then, have him write up his story, and mail a letter to his state representatives and senators, asking them, "Why can't a hard working american not afford to get basic medical care?"

Good luck to him,

peace,
sam

[Directive0]

about 5 years ago my mother was diagnosed with leukemia. We.... strike that. SHE fought through it and today is alive and well. HOWEVER, had we not of been kooky kanadians we'd be very much in debt, if not completely bankrupt. Its a terrifying thought, especially with the rising level of cancer incidents.

[sk8rs_dad]

Would suggesting the purchase the obvious insurance policy, namely a good helmet to reduce the risk of serious head injury be political suicide on a skaters forum?

Should a publicly funded health care system be used as a panacea for stupidity?

I have no argument with those that would like to see the health care system improve, in the US or any other country, in order to prevent the hardships described in previous posts. Personally, I have no complaint with funding such a system.

At some level, this issue in the same league of problems like New Zealand and Australia have in funding the rescue of millionaire sailors who get into trouble circumnavigating Antarctica, Is it the same as the problem BC has rescuing back-country skiers? At what point is a person responsible for their own choices? What is a reasonable amount of public support for risky behaviour?

[dcphotos]

I'm all for a public health care insurance plan for those than can't afford insurance. It's pricey to pay for, but hell I'm far from being wealthy and I have good coverage. If you have a job you should have some sort of coverage available. If you just choose not to pay for it and you can afford it it's like being mad at the hammer when you whack your hand.
On the same note there are dirt poor people that can't afford it. They go to the emergency rooms where they can't turn them away and then never pay their bills. That's one of the reasons our health care is so damn expensive anyway.

[EBasil]

After I finished grad school, I had a window of time before employment would cover my medical insurance, but kept on racing MTB's. I crashed hard at a race in Arizona, got up, finished the race and began passing a lot of blood a few days later. Fast forward 5 days and I was back home with a $50,000.00 medical bill, no insurance and no real ability to pay. The Hospital wrote the bill down to $14,000 and gave me 5 years to pay it off...which I did in three.

The thing is, nobody owed me a free ride, and the $36,000.00 write-down was charity...they didn't have to, but apparently do it all the time for uninsured bums like I was. I could have tried to skate on the bill afterward, but I figured that, since they didn't try to skate on keeping me alive when I was laying on a table, maybe I shouldn't try to evade my part of the deal, later (or at least the part they didn't waive down). Would it have been great if some sugar daddy swooped in and paid my bill, or if there were some taxation I didn't have to pay that let the government pay it for me? Sure thing! It would be great it Alex Luxat would send me 5 skateboards for free, too.

The short term solution for that unfortunate fellow is to enter into a payment plan, pay his debts and consider employment that includes health coverage for the next time something happens. If he's self-employed, like I am, that can be expensive but it's part of the deal.

The longterm solution is political, and beyond the scope of what we discuss on this site (for very good reasons). But when it makes sense to pay in taxes what we don't have to pay in health insurance...we'll do it. Don't hold your breath waiting, eh?

[ej25goddess]

One of my recent term papers was on a single payer healthcare system. I lean mostly twards liberatarianism, so I initially was against it of course. In the end however, I found that a single payer system would actually save the United States government money in the long run. It comes down to the fact that our society insists people must be responsible for their own medical costs, but we will not lock them out of the hospitals if they have no money to pay for their care. Untill we are cold enough to make that decision, we must set in place realistic systems in which people may receive the care that we are going to give them one way or another.

On a side note, I am a bit of a strange libertarian. I belive in Uber-funded free public education through graudate levels, vocational training, and single payer healthcare. Essentially I want everyone to have the ability to pull their asses up by their boot straps should they have the work ethic and emotional fortitude to do so, and then they should have to go compete in our capitalist economy on their own. Maybe I am just anti-socialist and democrat/republican since I was raised by middle class republicans and went to a communist high school (not kidding on this one), or maybe I am just a raging silly Berkeley person.

Who knows, either way, thats my opinion, and I am glad that anyone who disagrees with me has the right to. At least we still have that right... for the most part... in this country.

Feel free to, in fact, please flame me for my opinions. Excercise your rights gaurenteed to you by the first amendment. Give me hope for the American democratic experiment!


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire (probably, there is some debate about that)

[EBasil]

What rights does the First Amendment give us on websites, anyway?

[ej25goddess]

Originally Posted by EBasil

What rights does the First Amendment give us on websites, anyway?

A very good question, I think that our government is still trying to figure that one out.

If you are refering to the fact that this is a privately run website, that of course is a different issue. The owners can modify or delete our comments at any time, and they should have the right to. It is afterall, their site.

[revzack]

See, i dont want to wait for anything, especially healthcare and when i need it, i want it now. Canada, is notorious for having to wait, people even come here for care (the govt, pays for it in some cases i understand.) Sounds great on paper, but you must remember the saying TANSTAAFL, there aint no such thing as a free lunch. I work hard, i pay taxes, health insurance, and i damn sure dont want to pay for anyone else. Call me selfish, but why is anyone else my responsiblity. Trust me when you pay a giant chunk of your earnings to Uncle Sam you will feel the same. Ok i will stop ranting now.

Zack

[phidauex]

Health care isn't an optional service, like say, auto body, or shoe shining. Its an essential service, like, breathing clean air, and usable roadways. We expect the communal effort of the government to pay for essential services in order to set a basic level of standards for life in the country. When we choose to treat an essential service like an optional service, and subject it to the rules of supply and demand, then some people get left in the lurch. Not everyone can get their shoes shined, which is fine. But if not everyone can get basic health care, that isn't fine.

Its not a matter of 'being a bum', since there simply aren't enough jobs offering healthcare available, and there isn't enough money being paid to people to pay for their insurance premiums. If one person "works harder" and gets benefits, someone else will lose them, since there is a finite supply.

Health care costs what it does in part because of the lack of insurance that people have. When someone without insurance doesn't go to the doctor for regular checkups, they get diseases that they don't notice until they are advanced. Then, they show up at the ER requiring surgery. Conditions that should have been fixed with a single perscription 6 months prior, are having to be fixed with invasive procedures. If that person could have afforded a checkup, then the healthcare system would have saved a lot of money and time.

ER docs are always complaining about this, people show up without insurance, and with medical problems that should have been easy to fix months or years in the past. They come to the ER since they know they'll get help. But its bad for the patient, because they are sicker, its bad for the hospital because they'll loose money, its bad for the ER because they are using their time doing emergency appendectomies instead of treating traumas, and its bad for you because you'll get charged more next time you come in to account for the loses. The only people who benefit are the insurance companies, who use all of that as a great excuse to raise your premiums, and increase your deductibles.

People are getting very rich keeping other people very sick, and it isn't working...

peace,
sam

[pirateswin]

Originally Posted by skategeezer

The ER room knocked 75% off their bill because of not having insurance, but it's still expensive as hell and the ER doctor and x-ray people don't care about insurance and want all the money.

I don't know enough about the two different systems to compare with certainty. However, one thing I am an expert on is the Emergency Department. I am incredibly dismayed and disappointed by the public attitude for health care providers in the ER. Summers and winters I work full time at Arlington Hospital's ER in Virginia. During the school year I drive home once or twice a month and give up my entire weekend for it. Everyone that works in an ER and stays working in an ER is there because they have a genuine desire to be there for people in need and care for them the best way possible. Try actually asking any ER physician, nurse, technician, or secretary if they're in it for the money. No ####### way.

Doctors leave medical school (a laborious 4 year process that they go through just to help you all) $120,000 in debt. Then they do a 3-4 year residency where they work 80 hour weeks and are paid incredibly poorly (something like $28,000 a year). Then to top it all off, ER docs don't earn very much and have to pay ridiculous sums on their personal malpractice insurance.

When I worked as an EMT, I delivered patients to the Prince William Hospital. ER docs had to go on strike there because after malpractice insurance costs and monthly med school debt payments they were coming out with $20,000 a year, which wasn't even enough to support their own families.

Then, instead of finding a better paying job, they leave for weeks or months at a time and volunteer, completely unpaid, in countries that need help (through Doctors Without Borders, etc.). If a doctor wanted to make money, they'd go into dermatology or something. If they want to genuinely help people and care very little about money, long hours, or incredibly difficult work, they end up in the ER.

Also, about saying that ER professionals order excessive tests and do the wrong things and all, you have to just suck it up and realize they dedicated their lives to medicine and your best experience is usually something like WebMD. If they order blood tests, CT scans, X-rays, whatever, it's because they're trying to get as much information as possible to treat you to the best of their ability. Thank God we are able to do as the tests as we do. Think about how many lives have been saved because blood or imaging tests were done when previously they couldn't be.

The money situation isn't really the hospital's fault, and it's certainly not the doctor's fault. Hospitals are really struggling to get by, just like you. Every day there are more patients (the baby boomers) with less money to take care of them with, while at the same time people are demanding more tests, more drugs, more extensive surgeries, and all for lower costs. Simultaneouslly, there are more people entering the U.S. every day without insurance that don't pay taxes but expect the same level of care. The whole system is dying, the whole system needs to be revamped. But that is not the level of ordinary doctors. That's at the level of politicians. Write your congressmen and senators about the problem if you really want change.

I go to work and every day see health care professionals get abused, mistreated, and not trusted because everyone thinks they're jerks and out to get them. "They must not care about my problem because they're taking time to talk to each other" Excuse me, we're human beings that need to socalize. This doesn't change the fact that on a 12 hour shift I rarely sit down more than 3 times. People complain about wait times, but never seem to consider that there are 60 other people around that at best are as sick as them (still awake and able to complain) and at worst a lot more sick, or on the verge of death. People complain that they got bad treatment, without realizing that medicine is not a precise science and there are different treatments for 1 thing, or that we're all human and sometimes will make mistakes. People give us all tons of ####, and hardly ever give us credit for the hard work and sacrifice for them. It's really dismaying sometimes, and I don't know a single worker that hasn't questioned whether they want to continue working because they work so hard for people and get so much negativity in return.

I don't know which system is better. I know both have their pros and cons. I tend to think the Canadians are doing it better than the US. Basic health care shoud DEFINITELY be available for all, no question. But one thing I absolutely know is that you guys should be thankful for the hard work and sacrifice that ER workers across the nation put in to make sure you get the absolute best care possible. I'm sorry about this guy's plight, it really bugs me how he's being #### on. I think it could be done a lot better. But stop acting like health professionals are so malicious, stupid, or out to get you and your money. It's not fair, and it takes its toll on people genuinely concerned for your welfare.

Thanks if you actually read all of what I wrote.

[phidauex]

Thanks for that, pirateswin. I don't blame the health care workers for any of this. There are times when people get substandard care in the ER, but I think thats just because of the main problem, emergency rooms are overworked because too many people use them as their only source of care, because they can't afford regular doctor visits.

I've got a lot of friends and family in medicine, and I think that nearly everyone in health care is doing the best they can. But most, especially the ones working in hospitals, are pushing hard for a universal healthcare system. It would have problems too, but it would keep people healthier, and at a lower cost.

But piratestwin is right, doctors don't 'make money' when they order tests. Its not like they work on a quota, or get commission every time someone uses the MRI. They just want to get you taken care of as completely and quickly as possible. I do support diagnostic protocols that help make it more clear to doctors what tests are going to give the most useful information in a situation, so they don't order tests that aren't helpful (which can be an issue in MI cases, when speed of diagnosis is more important than precision).

Anyway, its not the fault of the doctors, its the fault of the system for encouraging bad patient behavior, and for making things more expensive than they should be.

peace,
sam

[Slim]

Originally Posted by phidauex

Health care isn't an optional service, like say, auto body, or shoe shining. Its an essential service, like, breathing clean air, and usable roadways. We expect the communal effort of the government to pay for essential services in order to set a basic level of standards for life in the country. When we choose to treat an essential service like an optional service, and subject it to the rules of supply and demand, then some people get left in the lurch. Not everyone can get their shoes shined, which is fine. But if not everyone can get basic health care, that isn't fine.

I really like the way you put this. I think we really screwed up in this country when we allowed health care to be a for-profit business. You get it. I get it. And I think an increasing number of people are getting it and eventually we will join the rest of the world in thinking that health should be something that people provide for each other, via their government, rather than something they purchase on the open market from big business.

I lived in Japan for many years and they have a national health care system. I didn't have to visit the doctor much, but both of my kids were born there and I was totally satisfied with the level of care we received. I paid about $100 a month to be in the system. Here, it costs my employer $1200 a month to cover my family with an HMO plan that still requires me to make co-pay payments larger than I had to pay in Japan. And you know the crazy thing? Doctors in Japan still drive Mercedes Benz. They are still compensated with good salaries for all their years of education. And the Japanese people have the longest live expectancy in the world...

[pirateswin]

Originally Posted by phidauex

I don't blame the health care workers for any of this. There are times when people get substandard care in the ER, but I think thats just because of the main problem, emergency rooms are overworked because too many people use them as their only source of care, because they can't afford regular doctor visits.

This is true. Many trauma center ER's have standard wait times around 6-8 hours because people cannot (and sometimes just don't) get primary care. People use/abuse Emergency Departments whenever it's near impossible to get into a clinic or in to see a family doctor. You can tell it immediately, such as when families come in wanting multiple members to be seen (he has a sore throat, she has a cough, etc) or when they come in complaining of a symptom that has been occuring for something like 2 months. "What is the emergency, why did you come in today?" we ask. Sometimes they can't even answer. It's really because they have no other way to be seen.

One doctor's motto is:
"Emergency Medicine: saving the world from primary care, 1 patient at a time"

I also agree that medical care is an essential part of good living and that everyone deserves basic care. If the private companies can't make that work, then it should fall to the government to do something about it.

[atxjimatx]

When I was out of work for a year, I made sure that i got medical coverage as a high priority-- I ended up gettting decent coverage for less than 100$ a month... it's not like it's unattainable if your work won't cover you...... Sure, some people don't have 100$ a month; but a lot of folks who say they don't probably spend more than that on buds and booze.....
just a thought .. and here's another one--
Just about everything governmental in this country is a huge mess and clusterf@ck-- i myself would rather not have to count on them for my healthcare...

[mcgoon]

Originally Posted by EBasil

After I finished grad school, I had a window of time before employment would cover my medical insurance, but kept on racing MTB's. I crashed hard at a race in Arizona, got up, finished the race and began passing a lot of blood a few days later. Fast forward 5 days and I was back home with a $50,000.00 medical bill, no insurance and no real ability to pay. The Hospital wrote the bill down to $14,000 and gave me 5 years to pay it off...which I did in three.

The thing is, nobody owed me a free ride, and the $36,000.00 write-down was charity...they didn't have to, but apparently do it all the time for uninsured bums like I was. I could have tried to skate on the bill afterward, but I figured that, since they didn't try to skate on keeping me alive when I was laying on a table, maybe I shouldn't try to evade my part of the deal, later (or at least the part they didn't waive down). Would it have been great if some sugar daddy swooped in and paid my bill, or if there were some taxation I didn't have to pay that let the government pay it for me? Sure thing! It would be great it Alex Luxat would send me 5 skateboards for free, too.

The short term solution for that unfortunate fellow is to enter into a payment plan, pay his debts and consider employment that includes health coverage for the next time something happens. If he's self-employed, like I am, that can be expensive but it's part of the deal.

The longterm solution is political, and beyond the scope of what we discuss on this site (for very good reasons). But when it makes sense to pay in taxes what we don't have to pay in health insurance...we'll do it. Don't hold your breath waiting, eh?

Did you say uninsured bums?...................................I can't even begin to get in to how insulted I am by that comment, and I'm from Canada. There's a lot of hardworking bluecollar workers all over the f'n word for whom insurance isn't an option....but I guess if your a Doctor, or an Archtect, or a Lawyer you deserve it right?.....There's a finger between my ring finger and my index for that type of attitude.