Wells wrote:
Imagine you're a 14 year old girl looking through this magazine. Maybe you've skated a bit and enjoyed it. That magazine says "you're OK as eye candy; but don't bother actually skating." Combine that with the societal pressure to be feminine and delicate and vibing from male skateboarders and it's no wonder there aren't any successful female pro skateboarders.
I don't buy the 'blame the magazine' argument, its too simplistic.
(ie: Thrasher don't show longboarders, so how come they are everywhere...)
Societal pressure yes, but in general, women just don't obsess over sports as much as men. Biology??
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Last edited by sk8norcal; 01-07-2008 at 04:05 PM..
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Imagine you're a 14 year old girl looking through this magazine. Maybe you've skated a bit and enjoyed it. That magazine says "you're OK as eye candy; but don't bother actually skating." Combine that with the societal pressure to be feminine and delicate and vibing from male skateboarders and it's no wonder there aren't any successful female pro skateboarders.
No question this a big part of it BUTT.....
Please understand this from a guy that has raised four daughters, had bazillions of family and friends with daughters and done his level best to introduce them to every sport I enjoy (plus many I don't) and make them aware that the only real thing holding them back are their own decisions the most unfathomable one for guys being -
Often times, girls just want to be girly gurls.
Yes, stereotypes amplify sexism issues on both sides of the male/female equation - BUTT once again, the "victims" of that discrimination often share some of the blame for results like the reduced - all but non-existent - numbers of pro-fem skaters.
It is the rare and special female who gets beyond the BS in a male dominated sport however, far from thinking that the numbers here and now are the end-all, I truly believe there will be more ladies on top over time.
Remember, the sport is only now moving into it's third real generation and there are many parents working to change up the dynamics.
Try to forget about all the here and now crap and focus on tomorrow by bringing more fems along.
To say women can’t skate because they can’t skate like men is a sign of male weakness.
Personally, I'm not saying that they "can't skate." I'm saying that they don't skate at a level that is going to compel me to watch. So when it comes down to sponsorship and media coverage and getting paid, that's the hurdle women skaters are going to have. It's the same in almost all other sports. The only female sports that have decently large male viewing audiences are things like tennis, where men will watch because the women are hot. This is not "sexist." It's just the reality of how men's brains work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
"OMG gurlz r stoopid and there bodies arnt bilt 4 that so they kant be good ever" is the oldest, lamest sexist putdown ever. "She only got published/sponsored/elected/promoted because she's a woman" is the second-oldest.
Clearly, at the elite, brute-force level women athletes aren't going to be able to run as fast or jump as high as male athletes. That doesn't matter much in skateboarding, where technical ability, fearlessness, and skill are usually more important than raw power.
But to say that women don't have the mental ability (euphemistically referred to as "spatial awareness") to keep track of their skateboards during 360 flips and therefore can never be as good as men at skateboarding is sexism in its rawest form.
I don't think it is "sexism." Any physical task, even one that requires only the smallest amount of strength, is going to be easier to do by a stronger person. This is because the stronger person will be using less percentage of their resources to complete the strength portion of the task and therefore have more of their resources for the other parts of the task, such as thinking, balance, stamina, and so on. Strength is always an advantage.
As for "spatial awareness," this has been researched a lot. And the results I've seen show that the male brain, for whatever reason, is better at it than the female brain. Clearly some women are better at it than some men. But when considering the top of each species at the activity, males have that advantage biologically. This is not "sexist." It's biology, as best we understand it.
Quote:
So why don't more girls skate? I'm putting that one on sexism in society and [more so] in skateboarding. Women are already discouraged from pursuing traditionally-male endeavors like skateboarding, but the skate industry isn't doing anything to welcome them.
So, your argument for why there aren't more girl skateboarders and why they aren't better at it is that men don't let them? That doesn't say a whole lot for women's abilities if they somehow need men to allow them to do something. In fact, it says pretty much the opposite. Are you sure that's the argument you want to make? That women aren't equal to men because men don't take it easy on them? (in business or culture creation or whatever?)
Women could start their own skate media. They could start their own contest series. They could promote skating to other women and girls. And so on. But they don't. The only explanations for that are that they either are incapable of competing with men in the business world, or they don't do it because they just aren't as interested in skateboarding and its business as men are.
Personally I'd like to think they just aren't as interested.
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Pacifica, CA
"the pen is weak. skateboarding is as deadly as all hell" - gonz
Please understand this from a guy that has raised four daughters, had bazillions of family and friends with daughters and done his level best to introduce them to every sport I enjoy (plus many I don't) and make them aware that the only real thing holding them back are their own decisions the most unfathomable one for guys being -
Often times, girls just want to be girly gurls.
Yes, stereotypes amplify sexism issues on both sides of the male/female equation - BUTT once again, the "victims" of that discrimination often share some of the blame for results like the reduced - all but non-existent - numbers of pro-fem skaters.
It is the rare and special female who gets beyond the BS in a male dominated sport however, far from thinking that the numbers here and now are the end-all, I truly believe there will be more ladies on top over time.
Remember, the sport is only now moving into it's third real generation and there are many parents working to change up the dynamics.
Try to forget about all the here and now crap and focus on tomorrow by bringing more fems along.
I don't think people should be blamed for conforming to societal gender roles around sports. I think we should change the definition of what's "girly girl" activity so it doesn't revolve around making yourself attractive to or talking about men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim
Personally, I'm not saying that they "can't skate." I'm saying that they don't skate at a level that is going to compel me to watch. So when it comes down to sponsorship and media coverage and getting paid, that's the hurdle women skaters are going to have. It's the same in almost all other sports. The only female sports that have decently large male viewing audiences are things like tennis, where men will watch because the women are hot. This is not "sexist." It's just the reality of how men's brains work. This is the reality of how YOUR brain works; but it isn't how mine does. Maybe it's just me; but as far as I'm concerned women's sports should be pursued for reasons other than attracting a lascivious male audience.
I don't think it is "sexism." Any physical task, even one that requires only the smallest amount of strength, is going to be easier to do by a stronger person. This is because the stronger person will be using less percentage of their resources to complete the strength portion of the task and therefore have more of their resources for the other parts of the task, such as thinking, balance, stamina, and so on. Strength is always an advantage. Yes, and? Most skateboarding demands technical skill far more than brute strength. It might be slightly easier for men; but there's no reason a woman can't 360 flip front board a 10 stair rail. Also, i find the idea that you have limited "resources" regarding strength versus balance and thinking somewhat absurd.
As for "spatial awareness," this has been researched a lot. And the results I've seen show that the male brain, for whatever reason, is better at it than the female brain. Clearly some women are better at it than some men. But when considering the top of each species at the activity, males have that advantage biologically. This is not "sexist." It's biology, as best we understand it. Can I see these studies and results? Hit me with some links to peer-reviewed articles.
So, your argument for why there aren't more girl skateboarders and why they aren't better at it is that men don't let them? That doesn't say a whole lot for women's abilities if they somehow need men to allow them to do something. In fact, it says pretty much the opposite. Are you sure that's the argument you want to make? That women aren't equal to men because men don't take it easy on them? (in business or culture creation or whatever?) No, that's not the argument I'm making. The argument I'm making is that sexism actively discourages women from skating, shrinking the pool of female skaters to a tiny fraction of the size of the pool of male skaters. If, say, one in 100k skateboarders is good enough to go pro and there are fewer female skaters, it follows that there are fewer exceptionally-talented female skateboarders. Men taking it easy on women has nothing to do with it.
(sexism here is defined as such: male skateboarders who spend all their time skating are seen as cool outlaw athletes. female skaters who spend all their time skating are seen as unattractive, un-feminine, and probably lesbians. got it?)
Women could start their own skate media. They could start their own contest series. They could promote skating to other women and girls. And so on. But they don't. The only explanations for that are that they either are incapable of competing with men in the business world, or they don't do it because they just aren't as interested in skateboarding and its business as men are. There's little or no support for this within the industry. I'd like to know how you plan to have contests without sponsors and magazines without advertisers or a female skate scene supported by hard- and soft-goods manufacturers. And there's another explanation besides "women are bad at business and obviously care about manicures more than manuals:" women have been completely shut out of the business of skateboarding.
Personally I'd like to think they just aren't as interested. Why am I not surprised?
..... I think we should change the definition of what's "girly girl" activity so it doesn't revolve around making yourself attractive to or talking about men.
I really don't know how many more ways you can miss the point - not interested in finding out.
Reality 101
You don't make positive changes by re-defining reality. Positive, long-lasting changes occur when you understand reality then do the crappy scut work within those limitations.
Re-defining reality is no better than Coyote sex.
What? Coyote sex*? Here, let me fix your rant for you;
Coyote sex is standing around the hole howling about how great you're gonna hit it if you can only have your chance because it's so unfair that dumb grunts get there first and you can't understand how any self-respecting women would let that happen because don't they understand that those guys in Thrasher are only using them and if they had any self respect they would bag those losers and pay attention to the guys that understand what they really need but they've been blinded by that sexism bullshit which keeps them down and acting just like sluts and if we could only re-define what it is to be a
women I'd get down in that pro-skater thang and tear it wide open like only a
This is the reality of how YOUR brain works; but it isn't how mine does. Maybe it's just me; but as far as I'm concerned women's sports should be pursued for reasons other than attracting a lascivious male audience.
Of course. Women pursuing sporting activity is one thing. I'm all for it. As I've said before, I dig skating and surfing with women. The more the better. I think it's positive for the scene. I'm stoked my daughter skates. But we were talking about women getting coverage in magazines and contest payouts and sponsorships. There are only two ways to get men's attention and money when sports is concerned - be really good at something, or be hot. And actually, this works for women too: there are a higher percentage of women who are fans of the nba than the wnba, because women in general would also rather watch the best athletes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
(sexism here is defined as such: male skateboarders who spend all their time skating are seen as cool outlaw athletes. female skaters who spend all their time skating are seen as unattractive, un-feminine, and probably lesbians. got it?)
Yeah, I got it. But what you're missing is that if women are as capable as men at skateboarding, at building a culture, then why don't they change this perception quoted above? The only two options I can see for why women are "suffering" under sexism instead of thriving despite it or destroying it is that they are incapable of doing so, or just aren't that worried about it and would rather spend their talents on other things. I'd like to think it's the latter because the former isn't very positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
There's little or no support for this within the industry. I'd like to know how you plan to have contests without sponsors and magazines without advertisers or a female skate scene supported by hard- and soft-goods manufacturers. And there's another explanation besides "women are bad at business and obviously care about manicures more than manuals:" women have been completely shut out of the business of skateboarding.
Why do men need to let women into the skateboard industry? Did the men need anyone to let them in? No, they started the damn thing and built it up in the way that they wanted and the ways that interested them. If female skaters want something different, then they are free to create their own scene, like the men did, from scratch. They don't need to have the men hold the door open for them. It's condescending of you to think so.
My point is that if they don't do this, it's either that they aren't as good at business as men (which is what you are saying when you say they are allowing themselves to be "shut out" by men), or they just aren't that interested in putting their time and energy towards it. I think it's the second option.
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Pacifica, CA
"the pen is weak. skateboarding is as deadly as all hell" - gonz
I can understand physical reasons why women are at a disadvantage (on average) competing against men in sports like football and wrestling where strength and size is a significant advantage. With sports like skateboarding and snowboarding I suspect the gender difference is mostly the number of participants and not any gender differences. The reason is that if you look at most of the pro vert and street skaters they are almost all average to slightly above average height and thin builds, this leads me to believe that mens' advantage due to strength is not a significant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
Imagine you're a 14 year old girl looking through this magazine. Maybe you've skated a bit and enjoyed it. That magazine says "you're OK as eye candy; but don't bother actually skating." Combine that with the societal pressure to be feminine and delicate and vibing from male skateboarders and it's no wonder there aren't any successful female pro skateboarders.
I don't think it is really fair to blame Thrasher they are simply giving their customers what they want, if women/girls made up more of the skateboarding community Thrasher would include more women/girls in their mag. Besides I think that the skate community is trying to reach out to girls, look at how many of them are wearing girl pants, long hair and sometimes makeup.*
how much female skateboarding footage have you watched in the last year?
Just that youtube video; but as they say "some of my best skate-friends are women."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim
Of course. Women pursuing sporting activity is one thing. I'm all for it. As I've said before, I dig skating and surfing with women. The more the better. I think it's positive for the scene. I'm stoked my daughter skates. But we were talking about women getting coverage in magazines and contest payouts and sponsorships. There are only two ways to get men's attention and money when sports is concerned - be really good at something, or be hot. And actually, this works for women too: there are a higher percentage of women who are fans of the nba than the wnba, because women in general would also rather watch the best athletes.
(This seems like a pretty crucial difference you're missing.)
Yeah, I got it. But what you're missing is that if women are as capable as men at skateboarding, at building a culture, then why don't they change this perception quoted above? The only two options I can see for why women are "suffering" under sexism instead of thriving despite it or destroying it is that they are incapable of doing so, or just aren't that worried about it and would rather spend their talents on other things. I'd like to think it's the latter because the former isn't very positive.
Why do men need to let women into the skateboard industry? Did the men need anyone to let them in? No, they started the damn thing and built it up in the way that they wanted and the ways that interested them. If female skaters want something different, then they are free to create their own scene, like the men did, from scratch. They don't need to have the men hold the door open for them. It's condescending of you to think so.
My point is that if they don't do this, it's either that they aren't as good at business as men (which is what you are saying when you say they are allowing themselves to be "shut out" by men), or they just aren't that interested in putting their time and energy towards it. I think it's the second option.
You're completely missing the point about systemic sexism.
Why are only 10 fortune 500 companies run by women? Why did it take until 1994 for an Ivy League college to have a female president? Are women simply uninterested in success and academic achievement, or is there a glass ceiling? Were women and minorities just uninterested in higher education in the 40s? After all, they let themselves be shut out of Ivy league colleges. This whole line of reasoning is BS. Women didn't "let themselves be shut out." Men with power shut them out. When they were let in, it was miraculously discovered that they were just as smart as men and just as good at running companies.
It's unreasonable to expect a marginalized group to simply pull itself up by its bootstraps and build its own parallel industry from the ground up.
And to Brainfartsalerts: I'm not trying to sleep with women and don't claim to have any special insight. I'm gay. I just think women are people and should be treated as such.
Based on information I received as a youth, girls have cooties and could never possibly skate on the same level as men. I don't know what you all are going on aboot!
On a seperate note - 99% of you men reading this cannot beat Lynn Kramer in a race
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Wells, i'm not missing your point. I'm just disagreeing with it. I've just come to a point in my life where i no longer believe that it is the fault of the dominant party that the dominated party aren't doing as well. Life is a competition. We are animals. Why blame the winners for not taking it easy on the losers? I mean, I'm a big fan of compassion, in the buddhist sense. But that doesn't mean accepting the whining excuses of victims for why they aren't as _______ as other people are. If men have successfully built a glass ceiling that will keep women down, then what does that say about women? Break that glass sisters! Or ignore the male dominated companies and start your own and succeed on your own. But enough of people blaming men for the fact that they are better at some things than women are.
BTW, HC, I bet you're right about female readership of Thrasher vs. Concrete Wave.
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Pacifica, CA
"the pen is weak. skateboarding is as deadly as all hell" - gonz
What if one of the tactics a "dominated" party uses to break the glass is to call the existence of the glass into contention? Should we be patting the operators of chinese sweatshops for their competitive prowess and telling the whining, complaining laborers to make their own factory because we're tired of hearing them bleat about being dominated or oppressed by the man?
This thread sure took a turn, eh?
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Re: skateboard stereotypes...from Curriculum magazine
Re: skateboard stereotypes...from Curriculum magazine
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