The 3 minute mile.

[easy]

Who would be faster over a mile, a world class runner or a world class skateboarder? I would have said skateboarder but...

Four minute mile = 15 mph

Three minute mile = 20 mph

Fastest speed ever recorded by a human = 28 mph

Average top speed of your "average" adult male = 15 mph

Yes Virgina, Bannister ran faster than most of us can actually go for a mile and today's athletes are faster.

Probably would be a good race.

[silversurfer]

Here are some times and speeds over a 176' distance.
The rollsrolls was tested and pushing and pumping were compared.

JS pushing - 16.9 mph (7.1sec), lightweight drop deck, w/Exkate wheels.
JP pushing - 16.2 mph (7.4sec), rollsrolls w/Randal 150s and 101s.
JP pumping - 14.8 mph (8.1sec), LBL w/CarverCX's and 75mm Avilas.

I remember a short video of Chris Chaput that was on www.skogging.com where he was discussing the possibility of a 6 second 176' trap. That would be an average speed of 20mph sustained over that distance. Chris thought it would be difficult but not impossible. He recorded some times that day but did not hit 20mph on the flat.

[markgroenenboom]

Here are some times and speeds over a 176' distance.
The rollsrolls was tested and pushing and pumping were compared.

JS pushing - 16.9 mph (7.1sec), lightweight drop deck, w/Exkate wheels.
JP pushing - 16.2 mph (7.4sec), rollsrolls w/Randal 150s and 101s.
JP pumping - 14.8 mph (8.1sec), LBL w/CarverCX's and 75mm Avilas.

I remember a short video of Chris Chaput that was on www.skogging.com where he was discussing the possibility of a 6 second 176' trap. That would be an average speed of 20mph sustained over that distance. Chris thought it would be difficult but not impossible. He recorded some times that day but did not hit 20mph on the flat.

Silversurfer, are these time recorded from a standing start?

Am I nuts to believe that I was going 17mph? I got to get a GPS, I need more data.

[shapeshifter]

you are all so lucky. i wish i could complain about not having a mile of flat ground. all i have to do to get flat ground is skate a mile in any direction out my front door. would hit the bottom of the closet hill for seven or eight miles.

lol! know exactly what you mean... and even then our "hill" would be an exit ramp. airports? the one mile curvature of the earth is 5 cm or almost 2 inches and even then concrete airport runways aren't that long and usually have a layer of gummy rubber in spots from airplane wheels skidding. the slight crown on a bikepath or small road works to everyone's disadvantage but an ever so slight dip in the middle would be a killer find. if the concrete or asphalt has seashells in it plan on going slow. if you're running quarry stone untreated would be best but if they wax the floors in the coloseum a spritz of coke (it's the sugar in the syrup) will give you just enough grip.

a large concrete outdoor ice rink close by would be my obvious choice (you can bet that was built level). otherwise decent ovals may be tough to find and riding it both ways would always tend to favor goofy one way and regular the other... so if one were able to push/pump switch with equal skill then that ambidexterous pumpmaster would win. if you can find a track that has little "whoop-de-do's" (pump bumps) you can use these to your advantage. even an ever so slight grade at the beginning (only for a short way though) from both directions can be a "kickstart", if you will... well those are the only "advantages" i can think of without getting into the details of the options you may want to consider for the push/pump deck.

for now though, i think i'll sit this one out...

[silversurfer]

Rules, speeds and times for the Trap!

http://www.ncdsa.com/the_trap.asp

Run The Trap!
Rules updated Sept 9, 2004

The course:

1. Flat area with timed speed trap measuring either 44, 88, or 176 feet.
2. Acceleration area before speed trap, length unlimited.
3. Braking area after speed trap (recommended).

How to run it:

1. Start from a dead stop at any distance from The Trap.
2. One Rider is allowed to acellerate themselves on one single 4-wheeled skateboard by ANY natural means (Pushing or Pumping) with no mechanical or external assistance.
3. An official "Try" is made when the front wheels of the skateboard cross the START line of The Trap and timing begins. Timing ends when those same front wheels cross the FINISH line, and timing stops.
4. Rider may propel themselves THROUGH The Trap by any natural means (Pushing, Pumping or Tucking/Coasting).
5. Score is recorded as the TIME (In Seconds, out to at least two decimal places) through The Trap.
6. If you're running The Trap at home, here are the Seconds to MPH conversion formulas:
   -For the 176' course: MPH = 120/secs.
   -For the 88' course: MPH = 60/secs.
   -For the 44' course: MPH = 30/secs.

1. Your 4-digit access code is unique to you, meaning that you can update your time whenever you wish. Only your best time will display in the standings.

Credit goes to Steve in AZ, who as near as we can tell was the first to propose this idea on ncdsa.com way back on July 30, 2004. Ncdsa.com is proud to be able to further fulfill our charter by promoting the sport of skateboarding through the exchange of information. Let the games begin!
Personal Best Times Name Country Speed Trap Length Updates Comment Date Submitted IP Addr

1. Peter Klang SWEDEN 18.634 mph 44 feet
2. Michael Dong USA 18.450 mph 176 feet Rumballs, Roe Bullet, 4/3/2006 11:27:42 PM 24.17.xxx.xxx
3. Marcus Seyffarth SWEDEN 18.405 mph 44 feet 1 Soft gRIPpiNs, HarD RaDIKals and a Strong pUSH! 11/3/2004 2:12:43 PM 81.225.xxx.xxx
4. John Stryker USA 16.997 mph 176 feet 1 Dropped Custom Downhill board, Indy's, Exskate wheels 2/7/2006 4:09:16 PM 207.175.xxx.xxx
5. James Peters USA 16.344 mph 176 feet 2 Landyacthz DH, 77mm 81a Strikers, Exkates, Trakmate 2/5/2006 12:32:22 PM 24.18.xxx.xxx
6. Mike Cividino CANADA 15.707 mph 44 feet 1 first try, stop watch 9/30/2004 3:34:21 PM 24.141.xxx.xxx
7. Adam Daniels USA 13.514 mph 44 feet 2 Fatboy GS, watch, Freezing 1/22/2006 10:50:35 AM 72.228.xxx.xxx

[pavedwave]

Nice work James. Excellent way to present the data. Can you get a 4 minute mile?

Thanks Mark -- I think a 4-minute mile would be easier on straightaway. We've got one portion of the Burke-Gilman trail scoped out for this (no intersections) in the Kenmore-Bothell area. A cool way to do this if you and your friends each have a GPS is to set the device to trigger at 1-mile automatically, then stagger the start by a half minute and play PURSUIT.

Any more respect for Mr. Bannister?

Big time. I think the best respect is stop typing, get out on the board, clock a couple miles and send it for posting on our Cyber Mile page!!!

Is the velodrome the way to go or would straight get be better?
Seems like the corners would slow you down, do I see a pattern in the data that suggests this?
Why the change in elevation? Where can I see a picture of this place?
I got to get up there.

The curves definately make you work on the transition between exiting the corner pumps and setting up for a faster straightaway. When we hold a race in the Velodrome we'd probably run it each direction clock/counterclock as well, so that one direction would be toeside and the other heelside. I'll get some vids together of our last time out there... That elevation variance data is a limitation of the GPS -- I never have found the elevation to be accurate, but I think there are ways to synch it up online and have the data (latitude/longitude) balanced with real topo maps.

How winded were you after the run? Rather than a strenuos challenge, it seems to me that this challenge is more a balance of brute pushing with coordination to keep one's balance. Am I wrong?
Seems like a rolling start is a must if a 3 minute mile is even to be considered. I think that folks will get a reality check on just how fast a 3 minute mile is.

We were definately feelin' it after mile 3 or 4. Usually I take a mile or two -- several laps, to get warmed up and the heart rate up, then time one.

When John Stryker and I did the "Trap" earlier this year (the numbers silversurfer posted) I remember pushing like a madman, and almost falling over or clipping my foot on the back wheel, just frothing at the mouth pushing like crazy, and getting that 16.xx mph figures. I can't imagine keeping up that intensity for a full mile.

By the way silversurfer, the NCDSA Trap page has problems, namely Michael Dong's 18.450 mph Trap time corresponds to his 44 foot distance, his mph for 176 feet is 17.386 mph. Only Michael, Stryker and I have logged 176-foot times so far.

On our Cyber Mile laps in the Velodrome so far the times are 100% pumping, no pushes except for a few just to get started, then we usually are pumping about one full lap before we start the timer.

Mark, come on up some weekend, if you don't get a birthday GPS you can borrow ours! But in case you need to prompt anyone to purchase ...I bought a new Garmin 201 off eBay and my buddy got the Garmin 301 (has heart rate monitor and USB)

[deathfrog]

I don't get your graph, why is it that after you go down a hill your speed also drops, and when you go back up it increases?

[EBasil]

This is killer and it's a hard thing to kick that hard, that far! I think the straight course is the way to go, and it can be done.

In a far off galaxy, a long time ago, I used to live 1.1 miles from the Alpha Beta market and it was a straight run down Woodlake Ave to the store from the base of the hill by our block, leaving just a hair under 1 mile of flat distance. My buddies and I used to ride skateboards for a lot of miles every day, and would occasionally race to Alpha Beta... we'd kick the whole way but never did that in 3 minutes !!

I wonder whether an accomplished pumper would be able to make that distance and speed by combining the disciplines.

[derekderekderek]

i think the veledrome race is fine if its just done in one direction. that's how they do it in track races anyway...
but i agree that the faster times are going to be found on the straightaways, run in both directions. as far as i can tell, pumping a longer wheelbase is the most efficient motion over the mile, and the longer wheelbase seems to be a big disadvantage on the corners.
and for the record, the incline side isn't necessarily going to be slower when averaging both ways, and it's often faster when it's the first run. i don't know if i was the buddy james was referring to a few posts back (whoever it was that posted the 3:45 and the 4:30 still averaged a 4:07.5 mile, didn't they?), but i've had several attempts where the incline run was quicker than the decline. my first sub-4 mile was on a slight incline, not just because my body was fresh, but also because i find it easier to dig in and get friction with the front foot a little higher up...
ultimately, the wind is way more of a factor than any gradual changes in elevation.

it's great to see the mile getting some attention! as a former distance runner, i think it's a blast of a race, and a fun distance to train for.

[derekderekderek]

all that talk about the mile kept me up all night, and i couldn't wait to get out early this morning for a ride. this past summer, right next to the velodrome bike track, cirque du soleil had set up shop for about a month. the park knew they were going to make a ton of money off this, so they had no problem paving a huge chunk of real estate, which is now a giant expanse of unused fresh pavement. around the edges it's about 4/10 of a mile per lap, but i didn't stick to the edges- i just made sure my finish was the same place as my start, averaging 3 laps per mile, with the added luxury of getting to decide how big the laps were going to be made it easy to get some quick times. i had rolling starts at about 15mph, and pumped the duration of the time trials.

i can't figure out how to post pics, so here are some links to my garmin printouts.

the first printout here is from laps around the parking lot. (sorry it's so blurry- screenshots are the only option for printing these out...)
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18811542820.jpg&s=f10


the second printout is from inside the velodrome. i did a couple more miles in there, but after this one, i was cooked.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=7/18811551083.jpg&s=f10

[markgroenenboom]

well done derek, congrats on going sub 4 minutes. Thanks for the data and raising the bar. This was pumping and not pushing huh?. Very impressive.

[funkyphreakout]

I think it's time to get the video cameras and start getting some clips of the fasters pushers and pumpers on SF. Assemble a WHEELED MILE RELAY TEAM

[theothervagabond]

damn. thats fast.

[steamrollaaa]

omfg. okay i've been keeping up with this and i could only hold 19mph for 2.08. which is making me kind of pissed. i got a mile in 3.41.

being that i live in louisiana the street i live on at 1 am is completely flat and deserted.

i did a stopped start (Because my attempt at a running start left me with a scar on my shoulder)

i'll check back in with my follow ups.

in the mean time i'm going to leg presses and run on a treadmill

[derekderekderek]

thanks mark!

yeah- that was all pumping. i was going to get a couple miles in with pushing, just for comparison times, but last week i cut open my achilles on my pushing foot, and it rips open every time i try to push off...
i'm just going to throw this out there, and if i'm wrong, somebody will correct me i'm sure.
It seems like the pumping motion is the most efficient motion for the mile and distance riding. With pushing, there is only one point of contact you are working with- the brief moment when your foot touches the ground. With pumping, you have access to accereration throughout the whole motion.
for the mile, i think pushing gains it's advantage when you get into the bigger wheels, dropdecks, tighter trucks... stuff that's not as easy to pump, but adds efficiency in straight forward motion. that's a whole area i need to learn about- i haven't done much in the pushing department.
And the hybrid push/pump thing seems equally tough, mainly because of the loss of time in adjusting foot placement between the two forms.
obviously i'm biased towards the pump

[funkyphreakout]

For what I've seen of flatland pumping, I think the power of pushing is underrepresented. Granted, I say this because I have a middling pumping set up. But even in video of races I see people doing the stutter step/half extension pushes at the start, instead of really getting some power out of them.

I'm biased towards the push because none of my boards work for an effecftive pump

[derekderekderek]

i went out this afternoon to try out a few miles on an endless expanse of asphalt at marymoor park in redmond wa. i wanted to compare some miles pushing vs. pumping, and see which i could do faster.

the graphs on the following links show more information than the numbers at the top. the reason for that is because when i uploaded these times, i deleted my rest times from the data (to make it less of an eyesore).

the link below shows the data for my quickest pumping mile for the day.



*disclaimer*
i'm a lousy pusher, as the following graph will demonstrate.
i fully recognize that pushing is an art of its own that i know very little about. i also know that my form and consistency are wretched, since this was my first time trying to push a mile for speed... but i wanted to at least get a comparison of the two attempts posted anyway. with effort at least, the miles are roughly even, with average heart rates about 180 bpm in both.



the pushing mile had a higher top speed, and i know it could have been way higher with a better setup (like a dropdeck) alone. my muscles tired quickly, and it felt like pushing required quite a bit more energy- it felt more like running than anything.

i'm going to work on that comparison some more. suggestions gladly accepted!

[markgroenenboom]

This seems like the first concrete evidence (pardon the pun) that the 3 minute pumping mile might be possible. Oh no, not more spandex .

[derekderekderek]

i think they should just call those things supersuits, like from the incredibles.
i haven't had the urge to make that leap yet- i think i'll desperately look elsewhere for those precious seconds...

mark- when you were hitting 18mph on your ride, what were you riding?

[pavedwave]

yeah, this is what chaput looked like at hood river last weekend in the sperm suit and he COOKED in the giant slalom.

i say we look into bigger wheels or wheelbases first...

D -- was your push time on the same 3x loop track as the pump time? 'cause I'd think you could bump that up fast if you pushed a straightaway 2 directions instead of trying to push and navigate corners (but that also means you gotta do 2 miles of pushin...ugh)