TAP Blowout Salvageable?

[Niles]

<***You can skip this story if you want***>

What a frustrating day. I ordered a roarockit bag a while back, but couldn't use it until I got thin enough wood...well I got the wood recently and went to work last night.

Everything went pretty well...my dry run went great, so I glued up two veneers, put 'em in and sucked it down. About an hour later I started to hear the bag creaking. I used a wet rag to try and figure out where the leak was, and found that there was a small amount of air getting in through one of the side seams. I used some of the black stuff to try and seal it, but when I pumped the air out again the gap just got bigger and bigger.

After leaving it for the night I came back to it this morning. I taped the gap, did another dry run, glued up a third veneer put it in, and the exact same thing happened, except that a new gap had formed in a different side seam.

So at this point I think the bag is just defective. I contacted Roarockit about it, but they haven't gotten back to me yet.

<***/skip***>

So, the end of the matter is this: I've got a non functioning vacuum bag with two veneers glued and shaped (6mm total thickness) and I'm wondering if there's something I can do to finish the board without the vacuum bag.

Here's a picture of the two plys:



Is there anything I can do to make it rideable and keep the shape?

Thanks!

[Ted]

Do you have a picture of the veneers being pressed in the mold?

Something does not sound right with your setup as seams usually are under vacuum and can not (or should not) be stretched apart during a layup. Do you have a bottom piece of plywood that is wider than your mold so when you pull a vacuum, instead of compressing the seam it is stretching the seam?

It looks like a drop board from the pic. Because of the extreme bends you need to manually push the veneers down at the ends as you are pumping the air from the TAP bag to prevent the bag from being sucked into the void and being stretched. Hope this makes sense.

We really care about our kits working properly and know when sent they are not defective. The 70 inch bags like yours are double checked as they are a custom item and need to be right. If used and maintained properly they will last for a long time. The seams are not built to be stretched and your description "the gap just got bigger and bigger" seems to indicate this is what is happening. If so you need to change your mold/setup so that the seams are under compression and not tension during a build.

If this is what the problem is. My concern is that others may do the same. Your posting will help prevent this from happening again. Thank you Niles. I have added a note to the :: DROP BOARD BUILD to let others of the potential problem.

That said we recommend an oversized TAP bag. Norah and I will send you this, free of charge for the problems you have had with your build. I recommend a 20 by 70" TAP bag. Let us know if this is OK with you?

Ted from Roarockit

[Camel]

Ted - You just got +1 on your rep. The epitome of a concerned vendor...

[Niles]

Do you have a picture of the veneers being pressed in the mold?

Something does not sound right with your setup as seams usually are under vacuum and can not (or should not) be stretched apart during a layup. Do you have a bottom piece of plywood that is wider than your mold so when you pull a vacuum, instead of compressing the seam it is stretching the seam?

It looks like a drop board from the pic. Because of the extreme bends you need to manually push the veneers down at the ends as you are pumping the air from the TAP bag to prevent the bag from being sucked into the void and being stretched. Hope this makes sense.

We really care about our kits working properly and know when sent they are not defective. The 70 inch bags like yours are double checked as they are a custom item and need to be right. If used and maintained properly they will last for a long time. The seams are not built to be stretched and your description "the gap just got bigger and bigger" seems to indicate this is what is happening. If so you need to change your mold/setup so that the seams are under compression and not tension during a build.

If this is what the problem is. My concern is that others may do the same. Your posting will help prevent this from happening again. Thank you Niles. I have added a note to the :: DROP BOARD BUILD to let others of the potential problem.

That said we recommend an oversized TAP bag. Norah and I will send you this, free of charge for the problems you have had with your build. I recommend a 20 by 70" TAP bag. Let us know if this is OK with you?

Ted from Roarockit

Ted,

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the veneers in the bag. That being said, however, I think you've likely hit the nail on the head with what happened. My mold had plywood attached to the bottom that made for a pretty snug fit into the bag. I figured this would be fine, but looking back, and learning from your post, I see how sucking the air out would have led to the seams breaking. Here's what I think happened:

1. Since the mold was too wide and tall for the bag, the seams were not flat, but stretched apart a bit already,
2. As the air was sucked out, the seam got sucked in towards the mold and added tension to it.
3. Just like opening a bag of potato chips the seam eventually gave way.

I don't know that this is exactly what happened, but seeing how well you know your product, I think it's more likely something I've done, than me getting a defective bag. So, I don't think it's fair to you that you send me another bag. If I could afford it, I would happily buy one from you, but alas...

So... +1 for your rep, -1 for my forward thinking.



As for the board...is there any way for me to add a stringer and some fiberglass or something? It's got exactly the shape I was hoping for, but only half the plys. Argh!

[Ted]

Thanks for the info it is helpful.

The larger TAP bag will be sent out on Monday. No problem from our side doing this....want to see you with a decent deck.

If you can wait for the new TAP bag you probably can save your deck by just adding the new layers to the existing pressed layers or am I missing something from your post?

Ted from Roarockit

[Niles]

Thanks for the info it is helpful.

The larger TAP bag will be sent out on Monday. No problem from our side doing this....want to see you with a decent deck.

If you can wait for the new TAP bag you probably can save your deck by just adding the new layers to the existing pressed layers or am I missing something from your post?

Ted from Roarockit

Well, somehow Thanks doesn't quite say it...but Thank you!

I don't know what else to say.

[Ted]

TAP bag was sent out on Monday. It should be large enough for your existing setup. Remember to get someone to give you a hand when pressing to push the ends down. It should work fine then.

Enjoy
Ted

[Niles]

TAP bag was sent out on Monday. It should be large enough for your existing setup. Remember to get someone to give you a hand when pressing to push the ends down. It should work fine then.

Enjoy
Ted

Thanks again Ted. I'll post up when the board is finished.

[bluewoodboarder]

Do you have a picture of the veneers being pressed in the mold?

Something does not sound right with your setup as seams usually are under vacuum and can not (or should not) be stretched apart during a layup. Do you have a bottom piece of plywood that is wider than your mold so when you pull a vacuum, instead of compressing the seam it is stretching the seam?

It looks like a drop board from the pic. Because of the extreme bends you need to manually push the veneers down at the ends as you are pumping the air from the TAP bag to prevent the bag from being sucked into the void and being stretched. Hope this makes sense.

We really care about our kits working properly and know when sent they are not defective. The 70 inch bags like yours are double checked as they are a custom item and need to be right. If used and maintained properly they will last for a long time. The seams are not built to be stretched and your description "the gap just got bigger and bigger" seems to indicate this is what is happening. If so you need to change your mold/setup so that the seams are under compression and not tension during a build.

If this is what the problem is. My concern is that others may do the same. Your posting will help prevent this from happening again. Thank you Niles. I have added a note to the :: DROP BOARD BUILD to let others of the potential problem.

That said we recommend an oversized TAP bag. Norah and I will send you this, free of charge for the problems you have had with your build. I recommend a 20 by 70" TAP bag. Let us know if this is OK with you?

Ted from Roarockit

DOH!!! sounds like i should have ordered a bigger bag, instead of the standard 70" that gets here on monday...

Will the standard width work as long as the plywood holding the mold isn't too wide?

How much does the 20" by 70" bag cost?

[Ted]

We have built two drop decks, one 8 ply and the other 10 using the same TAP bag you are getting. The last layers were tight but it worked without a hassle. You have to stack your plys evenly and don't make it any wider than you have to. Also chamfer the bottom wood part of your mold, this really helps.

Ted

[bluewoodboarder]

We have built two drop decks, one 8 ply and the other 10 using the same TAP bag you are getting. The last layers were tight but it worked without a hassle. You have to stack your plys evenly and don't make it any wider than you have to. Also chamfer the bottom wood part of your mold, this really helps.

Ted

alright... sounds good. I don't have the maple veneer yet anyways for a drop deck so my first couple builds will be more simple dancers. I would have ordered some veneer from you guys but the shipping went from $26 to over $70!!! That seemed a bit crazy...

[Ted]

alright... sounds good. I don't have the maple veneer yet anyways for a drop deck so my first couple builds will be more simple dancers. I would have ordered some veneer from you guys but the shipping went from $26 to over $70!!! That seemed a bit crazy...

Crazy is right! Shipping sucks and there is little we can do about it! Remember it is full sheets of Canadian Hard Maple that when packed is weighty and takes up a lot of space as it cannot be folded. The price also depends on where you live. Eastern and central US is cheaper cause we are in Toronto. If you are in Canada, shipping will be a lot cheaper.

It's the reality of doing cross border shopping and the price of oil that makes it so expensive. We put no mark up on our shipping.

You could ask Norah norah@roarockit.com to double check the shipping price. Easy for her to do.

Ted from Roarockit

[bluewoodboarder]

Crazy is right! Shipping sucks and there is little we can do about it! Remember it is full sheets of Canadian Hard Maple that when packed is weighty and takes up a lot of space as it cannot be folded. The price also depends on where you live. Eastern and central US is cheaper cause we are in Toronto. If you are in Canada, shipping will be a lot cheaper.

It's the reality of doing cross border shopping and the price of oil that makes it so expensive. We put no mark up on our shipping.

You could ask Norah norah@roarockit.com to double check the shipping price. Easy for her to do.

Ted from Roarockit

I can't wait to start pressing this board...
http://www.silverfishlongboarding.co...tml#post996412
I have heard that the breather netting will cause depressions in my wood. Does this happen? What should I do to prevent it?

[Byrne Burnham]

I've used the TAP kit for maybe 3 decks - one using a polyester resin as I was glassing this particular deck - and I've not seen the depressions you describe.....

The only way I could see that happening personally is if the wood is soaked (which shouldn't be necessary if you're using veneers thin enough).... I can maybe see the netting causing VERY SMALL dips or dimples once it's cured out - but again, that's only if the wood is soaked......But who'd soak wood unless it's too thick you know ?

From what I gather, Ted (and others) have done quite a few workshops using this kit with class loads of like 30-40 over quite a few different States - and I'm thinking over the thousands or so kits they may have seen this or heard about this....but I dunno - you Ted ?

[mxjoe307]

Ted,
i was checking out the roarockit site and couldn't find the 20 x 70in bag. is it advertised on the site or no? i've been researching building a board and loved your drop deck tutorial. thanks man

[Ted]

It's a custom TAP bag and it's in the woodworkers section. Here is the link: This gives you an estimate only. Write Norah for an actual price. Let her know where you live so she can calculate the shipping.
Roarockit | Custom Bags

About the depressions. Maybe if you were pressing balsa wood or really thin veneers with too much glue it might happen. With birch or maple, no way. Some Joe must have been shooting you a line!

Ted

[Fizzle45]

Major props to Ted and roarockit for having the greatest product support I have ever seen. Really, I was stunned when I realized that the second post was a representative from the company. Awesome.

[Niles]

Alright,

The bag got here a few days ago, and it is amazing. It's huge...plenty of room for what I was trying to do.

Here are the pictures of the board:







Thanks so much Ted!

[Ted]

Deck looks great!
Glad we could help you out.

Ted