Awesome idea man! I've been skating with dewedged indy 215's, and love them..!! I've actually thought about making a DH plate but just dont have the tools to do it....I'd buy them for sure...!!
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Holy sh*t all of the previous was confusing as hell. Im here to comment but I dont know where to start! I guess for me it comes down to this....
When I de-wedge my indys I use a hard wedge riser, The kind that Khiro makes that tapers from about a 1/2 inch to an 1/8. I de-wedge my front and back. This makes my kingpin almost strait up and down and gives it the feel of a set of 42 degree randals. Now I dont have any problems de-wedging, but I will say that it would be nice to have a baseplate that is already that angle I like. With that being said Josh Rolf from Munkae Trucks is working on a Precision Indy 215 that has the angle of a de-wedged indy how I like. The project is a ways out but when things develop ill post up.
Id like to see a working prototype before I consider buying them. it seems that the hangar would pivot weird and ware out the pivot cup and or bushings quickly. IDK, but thats just what I see.
get started on that sh!t!!!!!!!! wanna see it!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cann0n
I have level 3 DH skills but level 52 carving skill. I can't wait to increase my dancing level! I need to find some pizza to restore my health. OH NO! A Dog! .
I almost forgot-
Thanks for all the input on this, guys. Maybe if this thread get enough steam we can convince Cindrich or Bombsquad to build some of these.
Subscribing for steam.
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Holy sh*t all of the previous was confusing as hell. Im here to comment but I dont know where to start! I guess for me it comes down to this....
When I de-wedge my indys I use a hard wedge riser, The kind that Khiro makes that tapers from about a 1/2 inch to an 1/8. I de-wedge my front and back. This makes my kingpin almost strait up and down and gives it the feel of a set of 42 degree randals.
Glad you chimed in here. Your statement leads me to a couple of questions...
1) because of the way Indys turn, (without any right angles), by dewedging 1/2" (7*), are you in effect dewedging them more than 7*? Or is 7* simply 7*? In other words, because the angle formed by the 2 pivots is less than 90* (or more depending on your viewpoint), does changing the KP angle on an Indy exaggerate the turn (or lack thereof) moreso than on a Randal? To me it seems like it wouldn't, but I don't understand truck function so great when it comes to too much math.
2) In anyone's opinion, would setting the KP at a 90 be too extreme? The reason I suggested 90* was for the simplicity of the plate, to keep the cost down. I guess a person could always positive wedge these to taste
Looking forward to seeing Rolf's design, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
I guess I need to go buy some Indy trucks so I have something to work from.
That's the spirit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk8norcal
^
my theory is that dewedged baseplate is just a band-aid fix for indies instability...
once you run a split hanger, u dont need to dewedge...
(more weight on bushing)
john hutson was running his indy offsets frt and rr at a slalom contest...
I see your point. In a way. I feel pretty good on Indys without any dewedging, or just a dewedged rear, really (not nearly as good as Mercado, but pretty good). The main problem I have is holding a line in corners with them as they are now. Some of it is my weight (220), and some is probably poor technique.
My point is, the plate is so simple, I figured it's worth a shot.
Gotta disagree. If you make them tall, then you're stuck with that height on topmounts. But if you make them low, then (as a smart guy pointed out):
So, make 'em as low as is possible without baseplate-bite, and let everybody fine-tune with risers. Don't force any more height on the users than is absolutely necessary.
While this would help top-mounts, it would not help drop-throughs. If it's too low, we can't get any height back without moding to a flush-drop. Even on most top-mounts you can't make them too low otherwise you will get wheel bite anyway.
I also just realized, KPs will need to be pretty short if they stick out 90* to the plate. 2" max.
Maybe someone could throw some Indys on a DH Race and tell us how it us.
Would still be a little less of what's proposed here.
Lol. If you ran the DH Indy prototype on a dh race you'd need like 90mm wheels minimum to not get rail bite. And even then you may need to run hard bushings.
While this would help top-mounts, it would not help drop-throughs. If it's too low, we can't get any height back without moding to a flush-drop. Even on most top-mounts you can't make them too low otherwise you will get wheel bite anyway.
I also just realized, KPs will need to be pretty short if they stick out 90* to the plate. 2" max.
Just topmount your drop thru?
Let me reiterate: the reason the plate is so low is because of the simplistic design. May need to run risers or look into making the BP itself taller. I know grade 8 mounting hardware over 2 1/2"" can be a pain in the ass.
Yeah, the KP will have to be tiny the way the plate is now.
I think there's enough want for something like this....
so, this weekend, I'm going to be making 2 out of UHMW, just because. I'll try them on my Avenger.
Has anyone run stock (besides the mounting holes, of course) Indy 215s on a DH Race with any success?
Has anyone run stock (besides the mounting holes, of course) Indy 215s on a DH Race with any success?
isn't that basicly the same thing as dewedging the back on a topmount? (truck angle thinking)
i think running 215's on a DHR or any other sharp drop baord would cause for some major railbite..
i want to see this happen... i want to the split-axle design that sk8norcal is trying to say would work unbelievably well also. i wonder how they'd work together..
for all you CNC gods, how much would it cost to make the baseplate the streetheap is thinking of? or were we planning on making this a cast design? either way i want a set and i want to see it happen!
could someone post up a picture of a 215 next to the 90degree angle idea? im not sure how angled the KP is on a standard indy truck, but i know on my gullwing M1's, the KP is barely even angled at all
I just would like to add something about the indy kp angle...
Many of you try to look at this subject on a very mathematical point, but i would like to give another point..
I have some core 7.0 at home, wich are very similar to the indys 215, and because i only run topmounts, the other day i was thinking about swapping the randals 50º wich i had mount on the board, for the cores...
I changed, enjoyed a lot, felt much better....and then i started thinking about it.
Heres what i think:
When trying to evaluate the importance of the kp angle to the stability you feel, i tried not to look at numbers, but to sensations...
I had some randal DHs, wich turned like nothing, therefore very stable...
And with normal bushings on the randals and in the Core, loosened trucks at the maximum, i feel that the Core turned a bit less than the randals.
When you think about speedwobbles, try to look at how much road vibration and oscilation could be given to the trucks, depending on how much they turn...like an inverse feeling of normal turning!
Truck that turn less (randal dh), less probability of woble...simple as that!
So, if i felt that the Core turned less than Randals, they could be a very valid option for some serious Dh...
Despite the feeling of this trucks, wich feel very different IMO, this was how i convinced myself of changing the Randals for Cores...
Start with a simple prototype plate. Just make the plate just high enough for the pivot cup to fit at the correct angle. Then we test this to make sure a) The geometry works as intended and b) decide if the plate needs to be higher. Two plates could be made, one ultra low and minimal and one higher to satisfy all needs.
Here is the how the plate should look for the minimal amount of stuff needed to make sure it works:
Please excuse my awesome MS paint skills. The red square would be the new plate bottom obviously. The green bit where the bushings would sit on the KP would need to be there to keep the geometry correct for the hanger in relation to the pivot cup. This would be the lowest most minimal way to do it IMO. May need to be a tad higher to account for the hex part of the KP head to be flush with the plate. Also, if a taller version was done close to the same ride height as a stock Indy, then the use of regular 2"- 2.25" KP could be used.
Thoughts?
Last edited by partninjas; 06-29-2009 at 08:20 PM..
Start with a simple prototype plate. Just make the plate just high enough for the pivot cup to fit at the correct angle. Then we test this to make sure a) The geometry works as intended and b) decide if the plate needs to be higher. Two plates could be made, one ultra low and minimal and one higher to satisfy all needs.
Here is the how the plate should look for the minimal amount of stuff needed to make sure it works:
Please excuse my awesome MS paint skills. The red square would be the new plate bottom obviously. The green bit where the bushings would sit on the KP would need to be there to keep the geometry correct for the hanger in relation to the pivot cup. This would be the lowest most minimal way to do it IMO. May need to be a tad higher to account for the hex part of the KP head to be flush with the plate. Also, if a taller version was done close to the same ride height as a stock Indy, then the use of regular 2"- 2.25" KP could be used.
Thoughts?
I was waiting for someone to do something like that. If you moved the red rectangle higher you could put the bushing seat in line with the baseplate (with the head of the kingpin recessed into the dropped up part that Streetheap is imagining) you could make it even lower. These trucks would obviously need to go through several prototypes, which I hope one of the Fish's resident machine masters is up to.
Some people think that making Indys lower is just going to cause kingpin bite, but all that will change is the baseplate, not the geometry and not the hangers. The kingpins will still be in the same place relative to the ground, just not in relation to the board.
Edit: Here's a my attempt. The blue part would be the baseplate, and the yellow would be the dropped-up kingping hole and pivot cup. To keep the geometry a small part of the pivot cup would have to be above the baseplate.
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Making a plate that low is going to lead to problems with the kingpin killing the baseplate.
There's simply not enough room to support it properly.
There's a few solutions
• make it as short as you can get away with
• pogo it...
• make it too-tall and drop it through... *
I'd go with the latter personally.
This might still be too short.. hmm.
makes me wonder if this might be better than I thought.
I still think the way the axle is perched over the pivot would make for an -ugly- ride though...
*
Remember kids, it's the platfom's height compared to the roll-axis of the truck that counts.
how it got there is kinda meaningless.
For example— foot-feel / positioning is all that stops an evo with huge risers behaving exactly like a topmount.
Last edited by SteveC; 06-29-2009 at 10:00 PM..
Reason: added stuff...
Making a plate that low is going to lead to problems with the kingpin killing the baseplate.
There's simply not enough room to support it properly.
There's a few solutions
• make it as short as you can get away with
• pogo it...
• make it too-tall and drop it through... *
I'd go with the latter personally.
This might still be too short.. hmm.
I would actually prefer it taller as I want to run it drop-through. I was just starting with a super low proto for ease of making just to test.
You have a good point about the plate needing to be taller to be able to support the KP though. I like your moc up of my picture better. Looks about right as far as height goes. Tall enough for KP support and drop-throughs while still probably being at least a bit lower than a stock indy.
Thanks for the pics everybody. Steve: So.... with the minumum height, you think the plate would be too weak? What if we used 3/4" flatstock alu and hollowed it out a bit? (to keep the weight down) Methinks that would support a KP.
And partninjas: dude, sweet visual aid, man. Thanks for the help.
Re: Indy DH plate
Your statement leads me to a couple of questions...
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