Indy DH plate

[partninjas]

3/4" sounds like a good starting point to me, if not probably the best option for the end product too.

EDIT: Woot added an avatar!

[upsetter]

Originally Posted by streetheap

Glad you chimed in here. Your statement leads me to a couple of questions...

1) because of the way Indys turn, (without any right angles), by dewedging 1/2" (7*), are you in effect dewedging them more than 7*? Or is 7* simply 7*? In other words, because the angle formed by the 2 pivots is less than 90* (or more depending on your viewpoint), does changing the KP angle on an Indy exaggerate the turn (or lack thereof) moreso than on a Randal? To me it seems like it wouldn't, but I don't understand truck function so great when it comes to too much math.

2) In anyone's opinion, would setting the KP at a 90 be too extreme? The reason I suggested 90* was for the simplicity of the plate, to keep the cost down. I guess a person could always positive wedge these to taste

Looking forward to seeing Rolf's design, as well.[

I wish I could answer some of your questions. However I cant because I don't understand a damn thing you said! I personally dont get all this skate geek business but it seems to have persuaded many of you to ride Indy's and thats all that matters! But seriously, I think some of you guys are overanalyzing something that should be simple, its skateboarding after all! I ride my Indys as previously mentioned and have absolutely no problems. Ive taken them up to 65mph without a problem and shredded them down GMR with some of the worlds best and stayed right with the pack. Yeah a precision conventional truck would be nice, but even when there is one ill probably still ride my bent axle, de-wedged Indys till the wheels fall off.

What id really like to see is less Geek'n and more Shredding!!!!!!!!!!

[streetheap]

Originally Posted by upsetter

I wish I could answer some of your questions. However I cant because I don't understand a damn thing you said! I personally dont get all this skate geek business but it seems to have persuaded many of you to ride Indy's and thats all that matters! But seriously, I think some of you guys are overanalyzing something that should be simple, its skateboarding after all! I ride my Indys as previously mentioned and have absolutely no problems. Ive taken them up to 65mph without a problem and shredded them down GMR with some of the worlds best and stayed right with the pack. Yeah a precision conventional truck would be nice, but even when there is one ill probably still ride my bent axle, de-wedged Indys till the wheels fall off.

What id really like to see is less Geek'n and more Shredding!!!!!!!!!!

I have a hard time understanding myself ....myself. Just a simple idea, and I'm seeing if it sticks to something, I guess. Options are cool.
And don't worry, I still have plenty of time to geek out and....uh....shred.

[Barf]

Originally Posted by upsetter

I wish I could answer some of your questions. However I cant because I don't understand a damn thing you said! I personally dont get all this skate geek business....

What id really like to see is less Geek'n and more Shredding!!!!!!!!!!

You know, back in 1978, there were these geeks named Richard Novak, Jay Shiurman, Fausto Vitello, and Eric Swenson having a conversation like this... turned into the Indy Stage 1 truck.

Nobody skates without the geeks doing their job first.

[melifont monk]

^^^

damn straight.

[Hanael]

Originally Posted by Barf

Nobody skates without the geeks doing their job first.

lol chris chaput.

[upsetter]

Originally Posted by Barf

You know, back in 1978, there were these geeks named Richard Novak, Jay Shiurman, Fausto Vitello, and Eric Swenson having a conversation like this... turned into the Indy Stage 1 truck.

Nobody skates without the geeks doing their job first.

Your kind of wrong. Those mentioned above had conversations like this and it turned into a Stroker, which predates the Indy and by all means was an abortion. And even then those guys probably did it over a case of beer, a bag of weed and after an all day session in the great city of San Francisco, Not online.

You also left out the fact that if it wasn't untill Rick Blackhart came into the picture that the Stage 1 came to life. I believe he once said..........."So one day fausto and his guys came to see me and asked me what I wanted in a skateboard truck. I told them "the only trucks out there are Bennets and Trackers, One breaks when you grind and the other doesnt turn, so make a truck that can turn and is built to grind". Enter the Stage one.

[da-an-aniel.cal-al-an]

hey there fellas, just throwing in my 2 cents. I know there's concern about the baseplate not being able to support the kingpin, but here's an idea to lower the truck height:

if the baseplate were to have a recess cut out, either as a bushing seat (the better option i think, as it would allow for stim shaped bushings to have greater effect on a truck with dh issues) or as a larger, flatter section that you could let the bushings sit flat on but also could accommodate cupped washers, you'd lower the trucks even farther.

since you'd have less baseplate to worry about, the kingpin can be shorter, and it would hopefully (altho this may affect hanger geometry as well, I'm not sure) bring the kingpin out from the vulnerable spot that its 90* angle would put it.

I know it's kinda a half baked idea, but what do you guys think?

[Barf]

Originally Posted by upsetter

"So one day fausto and his guys came to see me and asked me what I wanted in a skateboard truck. I told them "the only trucks out there are Bennets and Trackers, One breaks when you grind and the other doesnt turn, so make a truck that can turn and is built to grind". -And then the geeks had that talk about how to actually build a truck that worked like Blackheart wanted- Enter the Stage one.

Fixed that for you.

[Petary791]

I'm loving all this technical talk. I get naysayed ALL THE TIME for riding Indy's DH. I switched to Crails just to see what all the hubub's about and I think I'm going to switch back to Indy's.

Currently I'm running Indy's on my Voodoo '07 with a soft dewedge back. I've taken it up to 40 and felt perfectly fine. In fact, I got more wobbles with my Crails than I did with these. I just love how it feels dewedged back flat front. I'm about to chop 2" off of my Voodoo to bring it down to a 29.5" wheelbase or so. Now I'm left with the dilemma of what to run on my highspeed DH board, the Pagan. I have Crails currently and it's fine but I just really dig on Indy's. I'm gonna try dewedge back flat front again but I'm thinking I might try Mercado's setup and go with a dewedge all around, since after all it is my high speed board.

It's funny that it's taken until this thread to see somebody dewedge a front truck. I've always wondered why people want to buy 42º baseplates when they can just dewedge their 50º plate 8º. Which leads me to my next point, longboarders are all about streamlined stuff. What's wrong with dewedging the front and back? Nothing really, but having a plate already dewedged looks better. Am I wrong? Is there something inherently wrong with the Indy baseplate?

And Jeez oh Lou, -21º? That's whack. It's cool that you can have a negative angle kingpin and still have a positive degree turn.

I'm interested in seeing the naysayer's reasons for hating on Indy's so much. I've just been told, "You'll die" (seriously) and "They're just unstable." I don't get it. I feel more stable with this 60º/40º setup than 45º/45º. Some scientific reasons would be nice, ie pivot position and stuff.

And to answer one of your super nerdy questions, I'm pretty sure with an Indy, dewedging 7º is actually more than 7º. How else could you go from 60º flat to 40º dewedged with only a 7º riser?

[partninjas]

Originally Posted by da-an-aniel.cal-al-an

if the baseplate were to have a recess cut out, either as a bushing seat (the better option i think, as it would allow for stim shaped bushings to have greater effect on a truck with dh issues) or as a larger, flatter section that you could let the bushings sit flat on but also could accommodate cupped washers, you'd lower the trucks even farther.

since you'd have less baseplate to worry about, the kingpin can be shorter, and it would hopefully (altho this may affect hanger geometry as well, I'm not sure) bring the kingpin out from the vulnerable spot that its 90* angle would put it.

I know it's kinda a half baked idea, but what do you guys think?

I think i get what you're saying but I think what is trying to be accomplished is something bare-bones, simple to start with just to test the idea. also this would keep the protos cheap$$$

Originally Posted by Petary791

It's funny that it's taken until this thread to see somebody dewedge a front truck. I've always wondered why people want to buy 42º baseplates when they can just dewedge their 50º plate 8º. Which leads me to my next point, longboarders are all about streamlined stuff. What's wrong with dewedging the front and back? Nothing really, but having a plate already dewedged looks better. Am I wrong? Is there something inherently wrong with the Indy baseplate?

I'm interested in seeing the naysayer's reasons for hating on Indy's so much. I've just been told, "You'll die" (seriously) and "They're just unstable." I don't get it. I feel more stable with this 60º/40º setup than 45º/45º. Some scientific reasons would be nice, ie pivot position and stuff.
?

Wedges add height. People want DH set-ups to be as low as possible. Also, a dewedged 50* does not feel like a 42* when ridden. a 42* Randal has a TON more lean than a 50* randal even when the 50* dewedged.

Not sure on the science of stability, but I think just the way the trucks are geometry and build wise a reverse KP truck is just less prone to oscillations. However, the new trend is running a dewedged Indy in the rear and a reverse KP truck in the front. This makes both trucks a pull/pull when going through turns allowing for minimal oscillations on both trucks and the back truck can track the front better through a turn. Think of it like pulling a shopping cart. It's easier to steer it if you pull the cart than to push it.

[Petary791]

Originally Posted by partninjas

Wedges add height. People want DH set-ups to be as low as possible. Also, a dewedged 50* does not feel like a 42* when ridden. a 42* Randal has a TON more lean than a 50* randal even when the 50* dewedged.

Very interesting. I wonder why it's like that. And it's funny you mention that because one of the reasons why I am thinking about switching from Crails to Indy's.

Originally Posted by partninjas

Not sure on the science of stability, but I think just the way the trucks are geometry and build wise a reverse KP truck is just less prone to oscillations. However, the new trend is running a dewedged Indy in the rear and a reverse KP truck in the front. This makes both trucks a pull/pull when going through turns allowing for minimal oscillations on both trucks and the back truck can track the front better through a turn. Think of it like pulling a shopping cart. It's easier to steer it if you pull the cart than to push it.

Very interesting. I've seen that being discussed a lot and I'm kinda interested in trying it. Maybe I will try as I DH more. I am interested in knowing exactly what in the geometry changes it though.

[streetheap]

Originally Posted by partninjas

I think i get what you're saying but I think what is trying to be accomplished is something bare-bones, simple to start with just to test the idea. also this would keep the protos cheap$$$




Wedges add height. People want DH set-ups to be as low as possible. Also, a dewedged 50* does not feel like a 42* when ridden. a 42* Randal has a TON more lean than a 50* randal even when the 50* dewedged.

Not sure on the science of stability, but I think just the way the trucks are geometry and build wise a reverse KP truck is just less prone to oscillations. However, the new trend is running a dewedged Indy in the rear and a reverse KP truck in the front. This makes both trucks a pull/pull when going through turns allowing for minimal oscillations on both trucks and the back truck can track the front better through a turn. Think of it like pulling a shopping cart. It's easier to steer it if you pull the cart than to push it.

There are a few people here on the fish who run or have run a conventional rear (myself included)
Like castertown was saying in another thread-

Originally Posted by CasterTown

Gaiz, as some of you know, i've been riding an indy rear setup on and off since this thing started. The theory is correct for the most part. It seems that with the caster facing the same direction in the front (randal) and back (indy) there is no oscillation at high speeds. I took this setup up to 45 mph and it felt very solid.

However... the fundamental problem with the setup is that indy's turn way too much, and although they are almost self-stabilizing at speed, the extra turn in the back is just too weird. This was so even with a 7 degree de-wedge.

And I tend to agree for the most part. I don't understand very well the physics behind an Indy's turn, or any truck for that matter. I just know what turns and what doesn't, what's stable for me, etc.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that I'm not as fast through turns on Indys as as I am on some other trucks, and that mainly comes from the back end, even dewedged. Sometimes from the front, too, I'll be pretty choppy/divey thru turns on them at higher speeds. Hence the idea, and this silly thread.

I'll be making one or two of these suckers this weekend out of 3/4" UHMW plate (mainly because I don't have any Alu. handy) and see how it flies. I'll post pics of the hatchet job when I'm done.

[CarlTheSmokingCrab]

o_O bitchin post that up pronto when you do. love this idea. love it.

[lstzephyr]

I'd buy them.

I have been running krux "the man" trucks(indy 215 size i think) on my 38" drop through board. Its 10 or 10.5 wide. I don't get railbite, although it does come very close. I wanted it as low as possible because I was a snowboarder before a skater and it just feels right. I run "indys" because I like having the choice to make a very fast direction change if I want. Randals turn but its not that same snap direction change.

The problem for me is that I want to deaden the rear truck a bit. I've tried randals on the back and it works but its not ideal(the angle of the board screws with my balance). I've tried dewedging it, and its close but not quite there. I want the rear to follow the front not act like 4ws. Or at least not as sudden so the board doesn't feel like its sliding.
I've basically gotten to the point of either dewedge it a ton, or change the plate. Or run a rear randal dropped through with a riser to flatten the board.

as far as making one, I don't see any reason you couldn't take some plate aluminum, weld on a triangle, and a cube, drill it accordingly, then gusset it and have a plate. Although that would assume you have the tools to do that.

[streetheap]

It works.







So as promised, I made one (so far) out of 3/4" UHMW. I used a GW Charger KP, though an Indy KP would of worked.
The only board I had unmounted was my chopped drop-thru Alpine, which still has the front flush drop thru mount. The only wheels I have at my shop ATM are the Lemon Bigz you see here, so later I will throw some more practical wheels on.
The fit on the board was good, though admittedly I'm no machinist and all my work here was done with a sawz-all and cordless drill. I ran the front flush dropped on a standard Indy plate. You can see clearance was very similar between front and rear. I got the geometry a little off. Ideally, I think a recessed bushing seat on the plate will be in order to bury the pivot a little more.

Clearance: A standard Indy plate sits at around 1 1/8" at the highest point of the bottom bushing, so with the tilt there the average is probably around 7/8"-1" or so. This plate the way it is now is slightly lower.

Ok the turn. Without getting subjective about riding tastes, etc., I will say there appears to be about a 20* differential between the front and rear trucks, maybe a little more. On this 28" WB board, it felt really good, and the response was great. The back end did drag a little more than I'm used to compared to the front, but some people really like that. When these plates get made for real, I figure I'll probably run them topmounted with a stock Indy front 7* dewedged, and one of these new plates wedged positive 7*, or not wedged at all.
I couldn't really turn it too hard becase of the back wheelbite, but my goal here was to make sure it turned at all, and I definitely got the result I wanted. Later, with smaller wheels I'll do some more. The back definitely tracks the front well on this setup.

Overall I think it turned out pretty good. If Dave can make these, I'd definitely buy them.

[partninjas]

Very nice dude!

Now it just needs the sides trimmed to make the usual plate shape for drop through and it's good to go!

Seems perhaps that a 1" thick block needs to be the base then the bushing seat part needs to be 3/4" so that the pivot cup bushing can sit all the way in the plate. That or the bushing seat needs to be 1/2" and the pivot cup 3/8".

[streetheap]

Originally Posted by partninjas

Very nice dude!

Now it just needs the sides trimmed to make the usual plate shape for drop through and it's good to go!

Seems perhaps that a 1" thick block needs to be the base then the bushing seat part needs to be 3/4" so that the pivot cup bushing can sit all the way in the plate. That or the bushing seat needs to be 1/2" and the pivot cup 3/8".

You are correct. Either would work, though it would maybe be slightly less than a 1/4" step, I think.
I just made another one where I've recessed the bottom bushing about 1/8". Works like a champ.
Sorry for the blurry pics. Sometimes my camera works great, sometimes not. The guy at the pawn shop told me it took great pictures. Oh well. What ya get for $27.

[nicthekid220]

wow, i wonder who would start making these things.

id buy.

[Shift]

Originally Posted by streetheap

You are correct. Either would work, though it would maybe be slightly less than a 1/4" step, I think.
I just made another one where I've recessed the bottom bushing about 1/8". Works like a champ.
Sorry for the blurry pics. Sometimes my camera works great, sometimes not. The guy at the pawn shop told me it took great pictures. Oh well. What ya get for $27.

If you have a drop through board try making drop-up plates. I have friend trying to make a proto out of modeling clay.