Hanger/Axel Width?

[Chainmaillekid]

Ok, so I searched...

So, whats the whole deal with Hanger width?

I know :
Shorter = less wheel travel/Quicker response.
Longer = More wheel travel/Slower response.

And also that it affects weight distribution.

BUT, is what width you choose to ride more a factor of the feel, or is it more so which width works better on your deck?

The normal Max width I've observed is 200mm, Is there any paticular reason why that seems to the the cutoff point?

The exeption to that would of course be the Originals S10, which is 250mm. And I really can't figure this one out.
Are they trying to make them more stable... I don't know if that makes sense. OR is that extra width compensation for the trucks more extreeme features?


The whole reason Im thinking about this, is Dimm mentioned it would be nice for us to make 200mm trucks.

So Im just kinda thinking what width our trucks should be.
I think they are currently 175mm.

Does anybody have any input on how wide they think our trucks should be?

Any reason why we can't/Shouldn't go wider then 200mm?
Any reason why we should?


For how many threads there are about _______'s new ___ mm axels, Im suprised nobody's mentioned how wide our axels are exept for Dimm.

[Bookworm]

anything over 200mm is just too wide. there is such a thing as overkill.

you usually match the hangar width to your deck width (more or less)

most longboards do well on 180-200mm trucks

[snozzboarder55]

originals and randal style trucks work quite differently so theres no sense in doing a direct comparison. a lot of truck sizing is based on the size of the deck, some decks wont allow for a truck smaller than XXXmm.

for dh purposes, many decks wont work "best" with trucks under 170mm depending on wheel size.

trucks are a very personal thing on a deck and its up to personal preference.

for your trucks i sat make them spaceable from 200mm max to 190mm min, with 5mm spacers to compensate. just a cool feature

edit - worm beat me, need to type faster

[Chainmaillekid]

Originally Posted by snozzboarder55

originals and randal style trucks work quite differently so theres no sense in doing a direct comparison. a lot of truck sizing is based on the size of the deck, some decks wont allow for a truck smaller than XXXmm.

for dh purposes, many decks wont work "best" with trucks under 170mm depending on wheel size.

trucks are a very personal thing on a deck and its up to personal preference.

for your trucks i sat make them spaceable from 200mm max to 190mm min, with 5mm spacers to compensate. just a cool feature

edit - worm beat me, need to type faster

These spacers... I couldn't find any pics.
Would they need to be beefy at all, or are they just like bearing spacers, but shorter?

Also, My search led me to a VERY interesting thread.

Truck with lateral sliding axle to improve traction

Im DEFINITLY going to be messing around with this concept, So awesome!
The slop may not be... but still.

[snozzboarder55]

Originally Posted by Chainmaillekid

These spacers... I couldn't find any pics.
Would they need to be beefy at all, or are they just like bearing spacers, but shorter?

Also, My search led me to a VERY interesting thread.

Truck with lateral sliding axle to improve traction

Im DEFINITLY going to be messing around with this concept, So awesome!
The slop may not be... but still.

you would have to mill your own spacers. they would have to be strong enough to keep the axle from bending, i suggest something around 12mm depending on the material you use. also the ID needs to be a perfect fit around the axle, any slop can and most likely will result in damage to the axle.

[Cann0n]

Width doesn't affect turning ability.

Randal Skateboard Trucks - General Truck FAQ

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by snozzboarder55

for dh purposes, many decks wont work "best" with trucks under 170mm depending on wheel size.

wait, what? define "best" and then explain to me why we're all going from 180 to 200 instead of 180 to 170.

cause I'm not following.

[Cann0n]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

wait, what? define "best" and then explain to me why we're all going from 180 to 200 instead of 180 to 170.

cause I'm not following.

It's like that car commercial... Wide is better.

I want 300s... I also want to take a surfboard and mount trucks on it... so my opinions aren't the best...

[Chainmaillekid]

Originally Posted by Cann0n

Width doesn't affect turning ability.

Randal Skateboard Trucks - General Truck FAQ

But it affects the 'feel', no?

[Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Chainmaillekid

But it affects the 'feel', no?

yep!10char

[kraffft]

If you're CNClng trucks isn't it fairly easy to offer multiple sizes?

Obvious factor: Too wide and the wheels get in the way of pushing.

Obvious?: Wider trucks make the board much less likely to tip over.

Non-obvious: Bumps will effect wider trucks less. Roughly speaking, the same size bump will cause the same amount of wheel travel. So more wheel travel=less effected=less likely to get wobbles.

Non-obvious: Wider trucks grip better in turns. More even weight distribution, plus other factors..

If you want to talk truck width I'd hit up the Surf Rodz guys.. They've been thoroughly testing trucks extended past ~250mm.. plus they're nice guys..

[WillJ]

From the Randal site...

The number one question to help you decide which width to pick is: How wide is the board?

You should usually try to match the outside of the bearings with the edge of the board where your front foot is. This will provide you with good leverage over the hanger.
However it's usually better to have a hanger that's a little too wide, than too thin. Significantly too thin can cause the outer wheels to lift when turning.

People often describe a thin hanger as being quicker turning.
This is because the board usually has more leverage over the hanger, the wheels travel a shorter distance to get to an angle, and less board-lean is lost to bushing compression.
It's not uncommon for people to deliberately choose to increase their board's leverage by choosing a thinner hanger than would usually be advised.

People often describe a wide hanger as being more stable.
This is because the board often has less leverage over the hanger, the wheels travel a longer distance to get to an angle, and more board-lean is lost to bushing compression.
Plus your feet usually have less leverage when compared to the board, and the wheels create less steering when they go over bumps.
It's not uncommon for people to deliberately choose to lower their board's leverage by choosing a wider hanger than would usually be advised.

When the axle angle is the same, the board turns on the same axis, regardless of hanger width.


Notes on width.
As stated above the width of the hanger doesn't affect the turn radius when the hanger is at the same angle.
But if the bushings are the same it takes more force to get a wide hanger to that angle, which is good for stability, but bad for responsiveness.
A wider hanger is often compensated for with a softer bushing, this can lead to some board angle not being converted to axle angle or "lost to squish", and to corner forces shifting the hanger left or right on the kingpin.
A wide hanger can potentially be more prone to wheel-bite, as the wheels get closer to the board at the same lean.
A wide hanger can also sometimes put the wheels far enough clear of the board to make wheel-bite impossible.
A too-thin hanger can be compensated for (to a degree) by soft/loose bushings. There is a limit though.
The shape and core of the wheels can have some effect on what hanger width is optimal.

[Chainmaillekid]

Originally Posted by kraffft

If you're CNClng trucks isn't it fairly easy to offer multiple sizes?

Yes, but we arn't CNCing our axels, they have to be made by a third party. I guess we could still offer multiple sizes farily easy...

And eventually the hangers will be cast.

And I'll deffinitly try to get some input from the Surf-Rodz guys.

[SeanML]

That leverage thing is BS. You have more leverage on your wheels with a narrower hanger, but your wheels are traveling perpendicular to their roll axis, so no real additional force is required. What matters is leverage over your bushings, which is only affected by the bushings themselves and the point of force application on your deck.

What WILL happen is that wider trucks tend to have a slower response time. This is rotational inertia. Try turning 360* as fast as you can with your arms in tight, then try doing that with your arms held straight out. The latter will be slower... same applies to making quick turns on a skateboard truck. Notice, though, that you still can still turn yourself with the same amount of force; you'll just accelerate slower as you turn and it'll take longer.

In cases like initiating a slide or predrift, you want a very quick response so your weight doesn't have time to start moving in the direction you turn your deck - if it did, you wouldn't slide out as easily.

Similarly, you want to be able to turn lightning quick in slalom without expending much energy... hence the narrow trucks with low rotational inertia.

As for deck width, I personally ride an 11" wide deck most of the time (I do this because I have large feet, and my toes don't hang off the deck). 11 inches is roughly 280mm, so allowing about 30mm for each side of the axle, that leaves me with a 220mm truck that sits almost perfectly with the width of the deck. Wider than that, and you get this really cool F1 racecar feeling... takes some practice to avoid hitting the wheel with your foot, but it's pretty awesome and makes you feel very secure on the board.


(DISCLAIMER: The effects I describe here are based on personal experience. The explanations, however, are based solely on logical conjecture and theory, and should not be taken as fact. If you have an explanation that makes more sense, it's probably right.)

[WillJ]

Originally Posted by SeanML

That leverage thing is BS. You have more leverage on your wheels with a narrower hanger, but your wheels are traveling perpendicular to their roll axis, so no real additional force is required. What matters is leverage over your bushings, which is only affected by the bushings themselves and the point of force application on your deck.

for the record:

you're just wrong

[snozzboarder55]

Originally Posted by Bookworm

wait, what? define "best" and then explain to me why we're all going from 180 to 200 instead of 180 to 170.

cause I'm not following.

by "best" i mean a hellcat is a no go with randal 150s. theres a big chance of wheel bite and having the axle width be shorter than the deck width means that there is a lot of leverage over the trucks. youll get better performance with a larger truck.

as for the 180-200 rather than 170-180, its all preference. it wasnt until a couple years ago that 160 was great for dh. randal dh trucks were made for speed and they are only 160mm.

now more options are available so people are going with the newer concept, and im pretty sure that a lot of people assume that wider hangers are more stable. they arent, well not in the range we are talking here which is 160-200.

[streetheap]

Simply.....ride a setup with Randal 180s.
Then swap the 180s for 150s
Then you tell us.

edit: I'm talking to the OP here.

[kraffft]

Originally Posted by SeanML

What WILL happen is that wider trucks tend to have a slower response time. This is rotational inertia. Try turning 360* as fast as you can with your arms in tight, then try doing that with your arms held straight out. The latter will be slower... same applies to making quick turns on a skateboard truck. Notice, though, that you still can still turn yourself with the same amount of force; you'll just accelerate slower as you turn and it'll take longer.

Good description of rotational inertia there..

That rotation is just the turn of the trucks..

Then there's the gyroscopic effects of the wheels themselves rotating.. Having greater wheel travel means having to fight the tendency for the wheels to want to stay in one plane that much more.

I'm really drawn to that F1 feel too.. Makes me want to try some trucks that are four feet wide.. Just make the wheelbase long enough to give you room to push..

Offhand I think the IGSA limit is 12 inches (304mm).. but that'd be overall board width.. so you gotta subtract wheel overhang.. Not sure how strict races usually are with all those rules though.

[jar5173]

Without physics:

Wider hangers/axles makes for slower response time (which many translate to increased stability.)

Narrower hangers are often thought to be squirrelly to riders.

Wider hangers also add a component of driftiness to the ride. Narrower hangers will grip more.

[kraffft]

Originally Posted by jar5173

Wider hangers also add a component of driftiness to the ride. Narrower hangers will grip more.

This seems like it's generally true.. it probably varies somewhat depending on your wheels..

I had been thinking that better weight distribution would give better grip.. But it makes sense that the tippyness of narrower hangers, putting more weight on the outside wheels, would dig them in better.

That might partially explain why topmounts have more grip than drops as well. That same tippier = digging the outside wheels in harder effect..