You have to remember when the Zigs came out, they were advertized and designed has slalom racing wheels. If you run them in cones (what they were initially designed for), they don't chunk or shred. If you start powersliding them, voluntarily drifting them, kickturning them, or whatever else you want to do with them, they will chunk and shred and loose there grip.
Of all the ones i use for running cones and racing (83a-86a-89a in 66mm-70mm-75mm), not a single one of them has chunked or shredded. If you use them for what they were intended to, they will last. I'm still racing some who are 3 seasons old.
And coning is not a bad thing, it's a very good thing when you want grip.
I bought a fair number of the Black Ops wheels when they came out. My overall impression is that they are AWESOME when brand new, but it's a slippery slope from there. In the case of others such as Zig Zags or Manx, they become much grippier and often greatly improved as they wear. The Black Ops however, just don't have a particularly desireable wear pattern. I found they lost traction very quickly after not very many runs.
It would be awesome if I could afford to roll up with a whole crate of brand new black ops on race day, but for now, I'll stick with Retros, Manx, and old formula seismic products.
I have had my speedvents for nearly a month now and i'm loving them. i guess i haven't worn them enough to notice any wear issues, but what i can say is that they still grip really nicely at high speeds and slide out pretty darn well too
(They certainly don't look that shiny now, but no chunking/coning yet)
so seeing i liked the speedvents so much, i decided to go with hotspots on my turner. only had em for a week, but i have used em heaps. i can get heaps of rebound out of these babies.
__________________ Longboarder from Adelaide, Australia --- Glyde Dropdown - KookyTrucks 200mm - Venoms - InHeats or 4Prez ---
--- Glyde Freeride - Grizzly's - Venoms - Stimulus ---
--- Loaded Dervish - Paris 180s - Venoms - Durians ---
there's a few people who can second what zak posted.
making that experience during a race sucks though.
when you compare wheels always keep in mind that there are a few people out there that have a vast knowledge about urethane and wheels/shapes in general..
ramons and zaks input should be put into consideration.
karls reason for posting his very own and very subjective observations might be a totally different one,of course he forgets that he is harming biz here,but does he care?
i am not chaputs friend but i certainly don't dig karls style!
but hey whatever its the internet keyboard racing is fun
kissing ass sometimes helps too
especially when you are unsponsored...
I bought a fair number of the Black Ops wheels when they came out. My overall impression is that they are AWESOME when brand new, but it's a slippery slope from there. In the case of others such as Zig Zags or Manx, they become much grippier and often greatly improved as they wear. The Black Ops however, just don't have a particularly desireable wear pattern. I found they lost traction very quickly after not very many runs.
It would be awesome if I could afford to roll up with a whole crate of brand new black ops on race day, but for now, I'll stick with Retros, Manx, and old formula seismic products.
Thanks, Zak.
I think that the clear smoke might make for a very good front wheel.
As well as the 73mm purples.
Donald - Speaking of style - you would be wise to not pass off your opinions and those of your team riders as unbiased and insightful when it is in fact competitor bashing.
Pointing to Zak's opinion, (from your team), is not so clever. Zak is making wheels and bushings under the Venom brand. Explain to me how your rider and Seismic wheel competitor's opinion is somehow more accurate than an unsponsored rider (Karl) with nothing to gain? Don't get me wrong, Zak is a good friend, I use his bushings, and he's entitled to his opinion, but don't insult us by suggesting it's unbiased and that Karl's opinion is ass kissing.
And for the rest of you who are actually interested in the performance of the new wheels, and not the drama of racer name calling, you need to do your own objective testing. With a clock. I did my testing, and I now have some Retros for sale if you want them. Do your own testing.
I will share my experience in fairness and balance to those above. I've been racing for 8 years, and just won the US Nationals (at my advanced age) on the Black Ops formula, beating Pappas & Reaves, who were on the Zigs. The closest race I had was against my buddy Dave Pirnack, who, not coincidentally, was on the same wheel set up as me. I don't think I could have done that with the Retro formula. Like many of you I was on the Retros since they came out, but I'm totally off them now, with the exception of the 66 Zig which doesn't have a Black Ops equivalent yet.
Chaput and Gesmer are both my friends. Yes, I've taken free wheels from both of them (thanks guys!) and I have a tremendous amount of respect for both of these guys in spite of what I happen to ride.
I've been riding the same pair of Blue 80a Hot Spots since the day they released. This business about "they loose grip when they wear" is total crap (in my humble experience). These wheels have held their grip and roll characteristics as well as any wheel I've been on, and I've been on them all (with the exception of Venoms). In fact, the races I won in Morro Bay last month were on those original Blue - Black Ops Hot Spots that I have had since release. The urethane doesn't magically get slippery once you break them in. If anything, it gets grippier.
One thing I noticed (maybe you wont, I don't know) is that the wheel has a different sound than the old ones. Maybe I'd had the iPod cranked too high before the session, but I think it's the formula. Knowing that the core in the Hot Spot is unchanged, this tells me the formula is significantly different. In other words, Black Ops is not a vacuous marketing hype and color shift on an unchanged formula.
In my testing, the Black Ops formula was .3-.5 faster in an 18 second test course. That is a HUGE margin. Way more then I expected. Is it a coincidence then that I won my first big race in Years on these? I'm a total has been. You be the judge.
This testing involved interlacing runs of Retros and Hot Spots. Each run I swapped bearings and ran the opposing wheel, using the same 8 bearings in every run. It was a pain in the ass to keep trading back and forth, but I felt I needed to do this to mitigate for wind, pavement temps, and fatigue (and Pirnack had a lot of cones to pick up after his runs anyway so, you know, there was time...). I threw out the hi and lo times and arrived at the averaged results. The hill was a mellow pitch with good smooth asphalt. Courses ranged from 55 cone TS to 45 cone HS (special). Conditions ran the gambit.
I also tested the new 73mm Speed Vents Black Ops and found that into a head wind (was preparing for Pacific St. in Morro Bay) the Speed Vents provided faster course times, though they did not "feel" faster. They were consistently faster than the Hot Spots or Retros in head wind runs. I suspect that the overall size of the wheel (4mm taller), and the length of the course (18-20 seconds) had everything to do with that. In dead wind or tail wind, the small wheels (69) ran the same times but hooked up better. So though times were roughly the same in dead wind, the runs were cleaner, due to the agility of the smaller wheel.
I would be happy to keep all this info to myself but you're going to figure this out for yourself eventually, and as I said, I'm a has been. Knowledge is power.
gary
leaving zak out of the discussion i can still refer to ramon as being the closest source available and he is not on my team.his observations on wheels are totally unbiased.i think my reation to karl is justified as this was not only a report on wheels,it was more to me.
you might think different and you are also entitled to do so.
we also did our homework on wheel testing and we also use a timer.
we also work and share thoughts with other pro riders we know.
so with all the input gathered we come to certain results.
one aspect we found out is that certain wheels give different results for certain riders and those are also prone to the riders style.
coming back to th first post i have to wonder what the motivation was for doing so....
besides that you might also want to know that a lot of this years top results either at the worlds or the euros have been won on gogonaut prototypes.
i did not feel the ned to advertise those in my prvious reply either
From my point of view, the rider's style and technique has an influece too. As I registred, you and Pirnack have similar techniques.
So do Dominik and I.
You are faster and feel more comfortable on the Hotspots. Whatever factor is the main factor, be it Urethane, Shape or Size.
Dominik and I are faster and feel more comfortable on Zig Zags. (In the last 4 big races we've been on ZigZags all the time*) Whenever I tried the new Hotspots I had remarkably less grip than with the Hotspots. (Marcus Seyffarth, this year's TS World Champion, switched on the very day he won to 66 Zigs. Before he had the new Seismic Hotspots.)
However, maybe it depends from the rider style, course (American or European style), asphalt quality (smooth or rough) or other factors.
BUT, as I said: Main factors in my eyes are racer style and asphalt condition.
*exceptions: coned 86A Avalons and some other, less popular, self-shaped wheels that won both, the GS at the Worlds (Dom) and the GS at the Euros (Me)
Having the timer & beacons really helps when comparing wheels, bearings, bushings, etc.....
I just got some 70mm Orangatangs.... very grippy.
I like them so well, I'm going to get the 75mm now!
I wish I had the 75 Orangatangs or my Big Zigs at the Pump Station last weekend... I forgot ALL my big wheels.
Martin ended up changing to his Big Zigs on his last run & took a second off his time!
__________________ "Let your haters be your motivators"
i think my reation to karl is justified as this was not only a report on wheels,it was more to me.
Don
I'm not sponsored, I'm not trying to get sponsored by this, I'm just stoked about some wheels, is that a crime? You seem to have a conspiracy theory about me that I'm unaware of.
lame
I still do ride zig zags a lot. They are good wheels, the new hot spots are really good too. Different conditions will always call for different wheels
Last edited by Karl Floitgraf; 08-25-2008 at 06:52 PM..
Don
I'm not sponsored, I'm not trying to get sponsored by this, I'm just stoked about some wheels, is that a crime? You seem to have a conspiracy theory about me that I'm unaware of.
lame
I still do ride zig zags mostly. They are good wheels, the new hot spots are good too. Different conditions will always call for different wheels
playing the victim now doesn't help either
go and reread your very first post
things would have been different if you had added the last sentence from this post.
Donald- I find it a bit ironic that you are calling into question Karl's motivation for praising the HotSpot. When did you say the gognot wheel is coming out? I look forward to Dan's unbiased opinion of your wheel, but I would guess he's not going to play that game.
Ramon - I can't argue with you about rider style, and wheel preference, because before I saw you ride Avilas at Paris, I would have never guessed someone could put that big a wheel through that small a course and have good results. I would agree rider style has an effect. Richy rides wheels I could never survive on.
gary
i really don't care about anybody's oppinion on any product i bring out as long as i know i'm doing the right thing with feedback gathered from my team and close friends.
be it trucks decks wheels
and it will find enough people interested in it.
and when you find something ironic....you don't really expect me to take all this stuff here too serious anyway?
When someone posts positive feedback on your competitor's product, and you call it ASS KISSING, it's just makes you look desperate. Do yourself a favor and keep that stuff in personal emails and off this forum.
Gary, I really like the review you posted because it contained a ton of concrete results from testing that you actually did. After I read it, I started thinking about what would may us come to different conclusions.
After a good deal of thought, I think a lot of it can be attributed to difference in style, as well as a large amount of a Placebo effect. For instance, My good friend Martin Reaves, almost never runs the same wheel as me on any course. He can only get a very small number of wheels to stick to his satisfaction. I, on the other hand, tend to be able to make a lot of other things grip. George Pappas, rides a completely different set of wheels from us.
Another thing I though about was how the wheels seemed to get less grippy to me as they wore it. Gary, the way you ride, is very smooth and your pump is very flowy and continuous. My style on the other hand, is very rough and my pumps are short and hard. This style tends to tear wheels up in a way that other styles don't. Whether or not this has anything to do with it, I'm not sure, but I have noticed differences like this in a lot of cases.
Finally, I think many people are very stuck on their "home brands". For instance, Jason Mitchel rides almost exclusively MANX wheels because that's what he is most comfortable on. For me, I have put in the most hours on very coned out Abec11 wheels. I am open to try new things, but they are always my fallback. I think a lot of people are reluctant to give a new product a fair comparison.
I really did try my black ops. I'm not the only one who has found the same result, but I everyone seems to have a different opinion about every wheel on the market so far. There are some people who swear by a certain company, and their styles may have been built around the riding characteristics of those products.
If Jason is riding Manx wheels, how old are they and in what condition?
__________________ “I thought you were going to kill yourself?”
“I did. Went home, turned on my mom’s car in the garage.”
“What happened? You’re still here.”
“Freakin’ hybrids, man. They just don’t get the job done.”
He has some that are from the original runs in super coned out condition. Last year I managed to track down several sets of brand new older Manx that I sold to him. Martin Reaves also rides older Manx a lot of the time.
Re: Black Ops
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