Insect Nano Firefly Prottype *Review*

[dozerdoggie]

Originally Posted by Loki440

if only i had the cash to buy some composite goodies and some nanotubes to play with (already have supplier) but alas no money

make me a board alas money

[Cob]

Holy crap thats cool!

[kenofseattle]

Originally Posted by rivers

Exactly how many carbon nanotubes are in this deck then?

Ok, I wasn't gonna, but now I think I will... I'm no scientist, and the people who engineer these things would laugh if they read this, but here's the basic principle.

The name "nanotube" is derived from their size, since the diameter of a nanotube is in the order of 1 or 2 nanometers (approximately 1/50,000th of the width of a human hair). One nanometer is equal to a billionth of a meter. (One millionth of a millimeter). In other words, these are microscopically small things. There could be half a million of them on the end of a human hair and you wouldn't see or feel it.

Nanotubes are "grown" in laboratories using arc-evaporation, and then "assembled" much like kids build little things with lego or erector sets, but on a microscopic scale. You don't pick them up with tweezers. You move them around by electrochemical means. And they tend to "clump" in a huge pile because of electrical attraction.

And it gets worse. In order to adhere them to a sheet of carbon fiber, you have to attach infinitessimally small "connectors" to the top and bottom of each tube (!!). One connector is specifically shaped to bond with an adhesive, and the other connector is shaped to connect to the fabric. The tubes, when connected by top and bottom, then all follow the same axis in the matrix. They stand up crammed tightly together like people on a subway platform or outside the Apple store waiting for the new iPhone. One big mass of tubes standing on end connected to a sheet of CF that is pre-impregnated with resin.

Next, the sheets containing the molecularly aligned nanotubes are pressed three or four at a time under extreme heat and pressure in molds with tolerances of less than a few microns. (You aren't gonna make a mold of this precision without a laboratory. They're made of high-tech materials and are polished for hundreds of hours before use). The pre-impregnated resin in the fabric liquifies at high temps and meld to the other sheets to become a contiguous landscape of diamond-hard black carbon about 1 or 2 mm thick. It is this material that we hammered with sledges to try and break and failed. Try that again. A 1mm thick sheet repelled the repeated savage blows of a 10 lb sledgehammer. Barely made a dent in the stuff.

These pressed sheets of CFNT are applied top and bottom to the birch core with the strongest epoxy ever designed (only available to the military or highly specialized labs) and re-pressed with heat and extreme force again. Now you have a blank, with a wood core, which can be cut in the shape of a Mosquito, Firefly or whatever shape you need. It's an indestructable surface with enough rigidity at even 5/16 of an inch to support many thousands of pounds of downforce.

And this skims over entire chapters of the manufacturing process so good luck working out the rest of equations and subsequent thermal process. It will be a few years before anyone gets close to this, and there are a few pesky patents in your way too, so if you want a skateboard made with it, Insect is the only source for the foreseeable future.

[KenSeltzer]

I want to get a Lighting Bug and a Mosquito not Nano though but my recent accident makes me just want to get a Nanotube mosquito

[dozerdoggie]

Originally Posted by kenofseattle

Ok, I wasn't gonna, but now I think I will... I'm no scientist, and the people who engineer these things would laugh if they read this, but here's the basic principle.

The name "nanotube" is derived from their size, since the diameter of a nanotube is in the order of 1 or 2 nanometers (approximately 1/50,000th of the width of a human hair). One nanometer is equal to a billionth of a meter. (One millionth of a millimeter). In other words, these are microscopically small things. There could be half a million of them on the end of a human hair and you wouldn't see or feel it.

Nanotubes are "grown" in laboratories using arc-evaporation, and then "assembled" much like kids build little things with lego or erector sets, but on a microscopic scale. You don't pick them up with tweezers. You move them around by electrochemical means. And they tend to "clump" in a huge pile because of electrical attraction.

And it gets worse. In order to adhere them to a sheet of carbon fiber, you have to attach infinitessimally small "connectors" to the top and bottom of each tube (!!). One connector is specifically shaped to bond with an adhesive, and the other connector is shaped to connect to the fabric. The tubes, when connected by top and bottom, then all follow the same axis in the matrix. They stand up crammed tightly together like people on a subway platform or outside the Apple store waiting for the new iPhone. One big mass of tubes standing on end connected to a sheet of CF that is pre-impregnated with resin.

Next, the sheets containing the molecularly aligned nanotubes are pressed three or four at a time under extreme heat and pressure in molds with tolerances of less than a few microns. (You aren't gonna make a mold of this precision without a laboratory. They're made of high-tech materials and are polished for hundreds of hours before use). The pre-impregnated resin in the fabric liquifies at high temps and meld to the other sheets to become a contiguous landscape of diamond-hard black carbon about 1 or 2 mm thick. It is this material that we hammered with sledges to try and break and failed. Try that again. A 1mm thick sheet repelled the repeated savage blows of a 10 lb sledgehammer. Barely made a dent in the stuff.

These pressed sheets of CFNT are applied top and bottom to the birch core with the strongest epoxy ever designed (only available to the military or highly specialized labs) and re-pressed with heat and extreme force again. Now you have a blank, with a wood core, which can be cut in the shape of a Mosquito, Firefly or whatever shape you need. It's an indestructable surface with enough rigidity at even 5/16 of an inch to support many thousands of pounds of downforce.

And this skims over entire chapters of the manufacturing process so good luck working out the rest of equations and subsequent thermal process. It will be a few years before anyone gets close to this, and there are a few pesky patents in your way too, so if you want a skateboard made with it, Insect is the only source for the foreseeable future.

wow i just liked them because they look cool

[kenofseattle]

Originally Posted by dozerdoggie

wow i just liked them because they look cool

This is where I'm coming from. If you strip away all the technical baloney, you end up with a very, very lightweight longboard that's basically impossible to break and drives like a Ferarri. What else is there?

[Rhyker]

why don't they just build a spaceship while there at it, geez.

[Alpha06]

Spaceships are so last year.

[luke.at.me]

What price are we looking at here? I understand that this is a very pricey process, but I feel it will be hard to find a market for a board over ~400, especially with other options such as deelites and customs. Although this is a ground breaking technology I believe the cost to benefit ratio will be far to high for most people to consider.

With that said I still totally want one, and if I had the cash to drop on a nanotube board I would.

[skatardude10]

Originally Posted by rivers

Toxicity

Determining the toxicity of carbon nanotubes has been one of the most pressing questions in Nanotechnology. Unfortunately such research has only just begun and the data are still fragmentary and subject to criticisms. Preliminary results highlight the difficulties in evaluating the toxicity of this heterogeneous material. Parameters such as structure, size distribution, surface area, surface chemistry, surface charge, and agglomeration state as well as purity of the samples, have considerable impact on the reactivity of carbon nanotubes. However, available data clearly show that, under some conditions, nanotubes can cross the membrane barriers and suggests that if raw materials reach the organs they can induce harmful effects as inflammatory and fibrotic reactions.[32]

A study led by Alexandra Porter from the University of Cambridge shows that CNTs can enter human cells and once inside accumulate in the cytoplasm and cause cell death.[33]

Results of rodent studies collectively show that regardless of the process by which CNTs were synthesized and the types and amounts of metals they contained, CNTs were capable of producing inflammation, epithelioid granulomas (microscopic nodules), fibrosis, and biochemical/toxicological changes in the lungs. Comparative toxicity studies in which mice were given equal weights of test materials showed that SWCNTs were more toxic than quartz, which is considered a serious occupational health hazard if it is chronically inhaled. As a control ultrafine carbon black was shown to produce minimal lung responses.[34]

The needle-like fibre shape of CNTs, similar to asbestos fibers, rises fears that widespread use of carbon nanotubes may lead to mesothelioma, cancer of the lining of the lungs caused by exposure to asbestos. A recently published pilot study supports this prediction. Scientists exposed the mesothelial lining of the body cavity of mice, as a surrogate for the mesothelial lining of the chest cavity, to long multiwalled carbon nanotubes and observed asbestos-like, length-dependent, pathogenic behavior which included inflammation and formation of lesions known as granulomas. Authors of the study conclude that

"This is of considerable importance, because research and business communities continue to invest heavily in carbon nanotubes for a wide range of products under the assumption that they are no more hazardous than graphite. Our results suggest the need for further research and great caution before introducing such products into the market if long-term harm is to be avoided."[35]

Although further research is required results presented to day clearly demonstrate that under certain conditions, especially involving chronic exposure, carbon nanotubes can pose serious risk to human health.

After first seeing this thread and the word "nano" I was terrified at wondering if people really think this stuff is super amazing. Sure, it may do some cool stuff physics wise, but in terms of health consequences... we are just now finding out that cell phones are worse than cigarettes and give you brain tumors like crazy. Nanotechnology has certainly come a long way much beyond making it in skateboards and is already implemented in unimaginable ways all around us in our lives, so I don't know just how bad using it in a skateboard would be...

But people need to be aware that this stuff is not harmless and nano sized particles easily lodge themselves inside cells, mess with dna, pass through membranes, cause all sorts of problems, and we don't know the extent of it yet, we just know it's not looking good. I would be weary of using carbon nanotubes at all... wearing a mask wont do crap at the nano level, who knows for sure about higher quality respirators. If you want to know more about possible areas of nanotechnology implementation shoot me a PM and I will be glad to share to whatever extent you are comfortable with hearing.

It's some pretty diabolical stuff for the most part. But like any technology it can be used for good, and for bad... We just dont have the knowledge or the techniques developed yet to protect against it because again, we dont know the full extent of the damage this stuff will cause to us.

I am very glad someone mentioned this. And like the other person said, this stuff is grown... and there are some wild things that can happen when things are set to grow. From my understanding they create them to grow according to artificial DNA... I dont know the extent of the material that is on this board, but there are technologies out there, DNA patterns that are set to repeat the growth pattern...

There's alot to think about. We are messing with the building blocks of life here... and it's just starting to go mainstream on a wide scale... once again, there is a lot to think about... I certainly wont be getting a nano-board for quite a while... Then again, It's all there, its all gonna happen whatever happens, so what the hell. You can't hide from a nano.

[tomahawk]

yeah...nothing will happen.

the nanotubes are in an epoxy resin. this means they will not leave easily. that means even if you sand it, you'll get large (larger than nano-scale) dust of epoxy resin+nanotubes. that might not be good for you, but you won't get the same health concerns as with nanotubes by themselves.

the only way i could see this being a health risk is if you take the time to sand, grind and re-sand for 50 times until you get a ridic fine powder. then you deserve to die.

cmon peoples, stop mindlessly reposting. THINK before you post. everything in the world is dangerous, just depends on two main factors: how much (over a certain timespan), and what size.

[Crappysurfer]

well said dane

[wilder]

Yes, like I said before its pre preg. Nano's already put into the pre preg sheets in a super controlled lab enviroment. On top of that the blanks are pressed in a highly controlled enviroment in whats basically a huge auto clave.

Oh, and about the price. The target price for the speed boards will be around 450 bucks and its pretty likely thats what they'll be. Less for the carving boards and also depends on the flex you want. So more than a Dee Lite Avenger, and less than a carbon/foam Evo.

Something I've talked about with Steve thats very interesting is just how simple this board is. And I think people will have a hard time understanding why they should pay more for a board thats only 3 main ingredients, than a board with over 10! But in my mind, simpler is better and a wood core is super resilient, especially when protected by CFNT. Yes the wieght can get lower and that would be rad! But an 8 pound complete board is damn light.

And lets not argue over why you would need a CFNT board. Of course you dont need one. You can go just as fast and skate the same hills on a 2X6 if you got the skills. But people like nice things, and this stuff will last a looooooooooooong time.

Now someone make some sweet titanium trucks to finish this bad boy off.

[kenofseattle]

Originally Posted by tomahawk

yeah...nothing will happen.

the nanotubes are in an epoxy resin. this means they will not leave easily. that means even if you sand it, you'll get large (larger than nano-scale) dust of epoxy resin+nanotubes. that might not be good for you, but you won't get the same health concerns as with nanotubes by themselves.

Thank you thank you thank you. You've obviously cracked a few books in your day.

[KenSeltzer]

I have Insects Skateboards as my Homepage . I am so excited for this !

[ConnorH]

I watched a bill nye science movie today about nanotubes. Now I know:

[jedininja]

Now someone make some sweet titanium trucks to finish this bad boy off.[/QUOTE]

I think Radical actually made trucks out of titanium, but they cracked easier than 1066alum.
I think....
Point taken though.

1MM CFNT> 10lb sledge?! Why don't we have an armor suit or something.
never mind, they probably do. Right along with cloaking suits.
Why can't I be a government scientist? Oh right..

[wilder]

Rode it in the rain last night and was again thoroughly impressed. The board is way more responsive than the birch/glass Firefly I have and I cant quite put my finger on why. I think it has to do with the slight flex. When skating the board shows no signs of flexing and feels solid as a rock. Its only when standing still and bouncing on do you notice the slight flex.

[jedininja]

maybe if you skate with a CNT board it will infect the bloodstream, creating a super-powered longboarder with a boardy-sense!!!!

[*Gnar_Dog*]

I only know a very basic knowledge of how these nanotubes make the skateboard better, but I have been riding skateboards for almost 13 years and I can tell you that this board feels so good underfoot, and it's alot lighter, so when you're hiking your local spots and hills, it feels like nothing. Super stiff, super responsive and once I get my hands on a deeper concave deck, you know I'm gonna be riding everything with that board.

I love the CFNT Firefly. Hands down best speedboard I've ever ridden. No joke.