Private vs. Public Healthcare vs skateboarding...

[revzack]

I must say i overlooked the obvious and no one else seemed to mention it. We do have "free" health care in this country. However as i said before nothing is really free. If you were to simply serve your country and join the military, They will provide you all the "free" health care you need until medicare takes over. See it is easy and while there are no simple problems there are simple solutions.

Z

[tomahawk]

does anyone know about health insurance in switzlerland? i dnk y but I want to live there and ride the hills alll day

swiss healthcare is pretty much like the rest of europe. basically covered. I had to goto ER once when I was there a few years back, b/c i had some bad stomach illness and i was poopin blood, and it was just awesome. short wait, seen by a doctor immediately, not ridiculously expensive. i love switzerland

[funkyphreakout]

I must say i overlooked the obvious and no one else seemed to mention it. We do have "free" health care in this country. However as i said before nothing is really free. If you were to simply serve your country and join the military, They will provide you all the "free" health care you need until medicare takes over. See it is easy and while there are no simple problems there are simple solutions.

Z

Problem is you're more likely to buy the whole farm or at least a large piece of real estate now than any time in the past 30 years. I don't know about you, but I don't want to serve for a while and then start immediately collecting my health care at Landstuhl.

If you're going to serve at this point in time, don't be doing it for the free health care. Do it for something closer to the heart.

[bean-a-reano]

So this is actually happening in some areas. Denver has a pilot program where they take chronic homeless people, pay for their apartment and healthcare, and require only one thing: go to their regular checkups, and do what the doctor says. No work requirements, no behavior requirements, no job training requirements, nothing. Just go to the doctor for your checkups. It seems dumb at first, to pay all this money for someone who doesn't 'deserve' it. But in the end, it saves lots of money! These people aren't showing up to the ER after getting run over by a trash truck, or after getting pneumonia in the street, or getting beaten up in the alley, etc. The money saved in traumas and untreated medical conditions pays for their apartment and doctor visits ten times over. Makes great financial sense, and it keeps people healthier.. That should appeal to anyone.

peace,
sam

Seems good in theory, but that really pisses me off also. I go to work 5 days a week and supprot myself. These bums lay around getting drunk all day on the states dime. Rather irritating. I know you said it was purely economical, but I thought of this so there.

[phidauex]

Seems good in theory, but that really pisses me off also. I go to work 5 days a week and supprot myself. These bums lay around getting drunk all day on the states dime. Rather irritating. I know you said it was purely economical, but I thought of this so there.

I understand your viewpoint completely! It is a annoying! That is why these programs have had a hard time getting support from liberals and conservatives. Conservatives don't like it because it is 100% welfare state, and liberals don't like it because it isn't configured in a way that is intended to make the people rehabilitated, happy and productive members of society, but just in a way so as to save money.

The only reason we justify it is because of studies that show that a small portion of homeless people fit into a category of 'forever homeless'. They are a small, but highly persistant group of people.

You know the most common amount of time to be homeless? One day. The second most common amount of time to be homeless? Two days. Most homeless people just get a spot of bad luck, fall on hard times, and have to live on the streets for one or two or three days while they find a friend or family member that can give them a hand. Missions, job training, reduced bus fare, soup kitchens, shelters, etc. are GREAT for helping these people, the majority of homeless.

But the people on the other end, the chronic homeless, are small in numbers, but extraordinarily expensive to maintain because of their health problems, and the fact that basic morals prevent us from just letting them die.

So we are presented with two options:

Leave them homeless. Pros, morally satisfying, because they get exactly what they earn. Cons, freakishly expensive, because they never pay medical bills, and they get diseases and traumas constantly from living in the streets and sleeping under cars.

Give them an apartment and doctor visits. Pros, far cheaper. Cons, morally unsatisfying, because they get something they clearly don't deserve.

Programs like this are only available to people identified as chronically homeless. Its not something that all homeless people are even eligible to recieve. Its not morally satisfying, but the fact of the matter is that the 'states dime' is paying for these people in any case, and putting them in a free apartment ends up costing 'less dime'. It seems worse, but we actually save money, which we can then spend on shelters and soup kitchens that serve the 98% of homeless people that are actual honest people trying to make it in this world, and who actually can benefit from training and assistance.

peace,
sam

[bean-a-reano]

Again you have a valid point or two. Except that 98% are honest people trying to get by. I would have to say about 70% are alcoholics or addicts that don't want to cleanup. I have met and I regularly interact with these folks. Spending what little money they have on booze out ways anything else everytime.

[Stonedancer]

When I was out of work for a year, I made sure that i got medical coverage as a high priority-- I ended up gettting decent coverage for less than 100$ a month... it's not like it's unattainable if your work won't cover you...... Sure, some people don't have 100$ a month; but a lot of folks who say they don't probably spend more than that on buds and booze.....
just a thought .. and here's another one--
Just about everything governmental in this country is a huge mess and clusterf@ck-- i myself would rather not have to count on them for my healthcare...

Why is it a mess? Because your government is run by companies anyway.

National health services are starting to go down the pan here since...oooo maybe about the time we started spending health money on stupid wars and they've tried privatising parts of our system. The principal works though look at France and Japan. People from the UK hop over to France for treatment, as it's better.

A big point I'd like to make is that medicine wouldn't be so expensive if it wasn't run as a business. If you have a captive market you can charge what you want. Compare with a car body shop... shop around to get a reliable private spray guy to fix your wing you'll get one price... if the same guy knows it's an insurance company paying ooooo well maybe 30% extra??? Same thing applies.

If profit is involved, all morality and good will cannot flourish. Money IS the route of a lot of evil. I'm a member of Surfers against Sewage here in the UK and since our water companies were privatised (without asking us! the people that owned it) most of the money goes to American share holders instead of cleaning our sewage outfalls so I get sick when I surf.... thanks free trade!

No seriously free trade is fine for consumer goods but basic needs like water, air, health care, education etc should be part of the collective good of society. Just as full on communism doesn't work, neither does full on capitalism... how about we all fight for a good compromise?

[funkyphreakout]

If profit is involved, all morality and good will cannot flourish. Money IS the route of a lot of evil. I'm a member of Surfers against Sewage here in the UK and since our water companies were privatised (without asking us! the people that owned it) most of the money goes to American share holders instead of cleaning our sewage outfalls so I get sick when I surf.... thanks free trade!

Holy crap man, that's unbelievable. And inexcusable.

[bean-a-reano]

Why is it a mess? Because your government is run by companies anyway.

National health services are starting to go down the pan here since...oooo maybe about the time we started spending health money on stupid wars and they've tried privatising parts of our system. The principal works though look at France and Japan. People from the UK hop over to France for treatment, as it's better.

A big point I'd like to make is that medicine wouldn't be so expensive if it wasn't run as a business. If you have a captive market you can charge what you want. Compare with a car body shop... shop around to get a reliable private spray guy to fix your wing you'll get one price... if the same guy knows it's an insurance company paying ooooo well maybe 30% extra??? Same thing applies.

If profit is involved, all morality and good will cannot flourish. Money IS the route of a lot of evil. I'm a member of Surfers against Sewage here in the UK and since our water companies were privatised (without asking us! the people that owned it) most of the money goes to American share holders instead of cleaning our sewage outfalls so I get sick when I surf.... thanks free trade!

No seriously free trade is fine for consumer goods but basic needs like water, air, health care, education etc should be part of the collective good of society. Just as full on communism doesn't work, neither does full on capitalism... how about we all fight for a good compromise?

Nice post.

[Greenamtern]

I'm going to sound like one of those nuts on TV commercials talking about this new miracle drug, but really, the money's in the treatment, not the cure. From an economic standpoint, there's much, much more profit to gain from treating someone than, to just perform a procedure to get rid of it. I believe it was Chris Rock who said that they just patch stuff up enough for you to get by, that eventually, people are just going to be desensitized to stuff: "Man, my AIDS is acting up again."



And in regards to the topic: Private vs Public Healthcare vs Skateboarding, skateboarding wins.

[Roodog]

A big point I'd like to make is that medicine wouldn't be so expensive if it wasn't run as a business.

Medicine being run as business is certainly not the problem. Patient care is the in the fore front of my company's mission statement, profit comes second to patient care. we routinely right off charges for low income patient who dont have medical insurance (providing free care for those that cannot afford it.)The concept that medical businesses put profit ahead of patient care is simply false. There are definately cases of companies, but you cant let a few bad apples put the practice of private medicine out on the curb. There are also manymore example of private healthcare companies that provide the highest care posible and are accessible to all patients even if they cannot afford it.
The fact the we run our lab as business allows us to hire the best pathologists in the field which in turn allow us to provide the highest standard of care for our patients. The fact that those pathologists sign out between 100-200 specimens per day makes them better pathologists. They would simply not get that level of experience in a small hospital setting. Its through specialization and sound business practices such a economies of scale that medicine will advance.
The case you are making the "running medicine like a business" being the problem just doesnt make sense. What is the alternative? Finacially troubled hospitals that cant even afford to pay their doctors and nurses or buy new equiptment?

[Stonedancer]

The case you are making the "running medicine like a business" being the problem just doesnt make sense. What is the alternative? Finacially troubled hospitals that cant even afford to pay their doctors and nurses or buy new equiptment?

Sorry Roodog I meant medicine in a wider political term... the funding for peoples operations comming from a central government insurance policy (which they can't dip into for bombs) would level the playing field a little. Instead of the insurance companies getting rich of peoples misery. Yes they write off a lot but hey how do they affored to do that and post large proffits?

I have private health care ontop of our govenment care. It's provided by my work and yet even though I have a back condition that is directly caused by being infront of a computer 8 hours a day... they won't pay out. Skating seems to loosen it up a little though (ooo topic related!) A work related problem, work related health insurance... sound familiar...

Good heath care for everyone without the beurocracy of insurance companies would be great for the USA, we even need ours fixing since the insurance companies started to get their tenticals into the system.

Maybe when the pharmacutical giants run the USA government instead of oil and arms manufacturers they'll pass a bill for government sponsered health system instead of government sponsered war?

[djackson]

Got that right, they make $$ off the war, and drug companies have no cures, just a bandaid to 'help' the issue. Dont you wonder where all the cures are? Oh, they are out there, make no mistake about it. But if it's 'cured' theres no drugs needed to 'mask' the problem, hence no more $$ for the big ones.
You live in the USA, we make more $$ than most, yet others have better insurance? You have to be used to getting stepped on by now?....Economy is so great and our top men in office are making big bucks right now. Why would they stop, and theres nothing you can do but hold a 'tea party' but oh yeah, the poeple wont do that. look up "Sons of liberty" Your in the wrong country if you want free health care, I have to pay to get to work, have to pay to work in a town I dont even live in, then have over 4 tax deductions...Oh, got a bonus and guess what? So did uncle sam, over 30% of it! Stupid money hungry country with gullible poeple that just sit and take it. Good luck

[BobLoftin]

When I was out of work for a year, I made sure that i got medical coverage as a high priority-- I ended up gettting decent coverage for less than 100$ a month... it's not like it's unattainable if your work won't cover you...... Sure, some people don't have 100$ a month; but a lot of folks who say they don't probably spend more than that on buds and booze.....
just a thought .. and here's another one--
Just about everything governmental in this country is a huge mess and clusterf@ck-- i myself would rather not have to count on them for my healthcare...

I remember that Jim, and I was inpressed that you actually had gotten insurance. If I remember, you got a policy to cover major stuff -- stuff that would otherwise break you financially. I did the same thing a few years back when we were going to be "between policies" for a few weeks.

I'm always amazed at how many skaters, who risk their well being on a regular basis, don't bother to get even that kind of policy. "Too expensive" -- but like you said -- paying for the booze, cigs, and other intoxicants isn't.

I wish we had universal healthcare, but until we do you better take care of your own self, eh?

[Slim]

The case you are making the "running medicine like a business" being the problem just doesnt make sense. What is the alternative? Finacially troubled hospitals that cant even afford to pay their doctors and nurses or buy new equiptment?

No, that's not the alternative. The alternative is the system that nearly every other vaguely industrialized country on earth has: consider keeping people healthy to be in the public interest and therefore the job of one's government and not something to be run for profit.

In the USA, we use our governments to provide public "safety", in the form of police and the military. But attack by foreign armies or street thugs are very low down on the list that cause death in this country. Why not have our government in charge of the real killer and real robbers of quality of life: medical problems.

[Joe]

...Why not have our government in charge of the real killer and real robbers of quality of life: medical problems.

There's no money in it...

[Brian Holden]

swiss healthcare is pretty much like the rest of europe. basically covered. I had to goto ER once when I was there a few years back, b/c i had some bad stomach illness and i was poopin blood, and it was just awesome. short wait, seen by a doctor immediately, not ridiculously expensive. i love switzerland

SWEEET Switzerland here I come...its like canada, but with better chocolate!

[revzack]

When health care is funded by the government, it is far from free. The price is more taxes. The true job of the government is to protect the country, not each induvidual person. It sucks but life is not fair. If the scientist dont get paid, in a capitalistic system what is their incentive to create new drugs, to have the best working on a problem. Communism doesnt work for the same reason, human nature wants to keep up with the Jones'. I want the guy making the drugs or fixing me to have his or her nice house or kickass ride. So as long as they are happy, i am happy. If someone has the same job, for years, with no increasing financial compensation, do you think they will strive to create new and better things, or like the rest of the government just drudge along with the same ol, same ol.

Zack

[pirateswin]

Got that right, they make $$ off the war, and drug companies have no cures, just a bandaid to 'help' the issue. Dont you wonder where all the cures are? Oh, they are out there, make no mistake about it. But if it's 'cured' theres no drugs needed to 'mask' the problem, hence no more $$ for the big ones.

You're an idiot.

Drug companies may be money grubbing whores, but they sure as hell aren't holding back on populations to avoid curing illnesses. Do you have any idea how much a "cure" would sell? It's not like there aren't enough medical problems in the world to still make a buck off of. What you are seeing, especially in the USA, is the most advanced treatment currently known.

Go to school and learn medicine before you make retarded comments like that.

[timmysweatpants]

When health care is funded by the government, it is far from free. The price is more taxes. The true job of the government is to protect the country, not each induvidual person. It sucks but life is not fair. If the scientist dont get paid, in a capitalistic system what is their incentive to create new drugs, to have the best working on a problem. Communism doesnt work for the same reason, human nature wants to keep up with the Jones'. I want the guy making the drugs or fixing me to have his or her nice house or kickass ride. So as long as they are happy, i am happy. If someone has the same job, for years, with no increasing financial compensation, do you think they will strive to create new and better things, or like the rest of the government just drudge along with the same ol, same ol.

Zack

Yeah but don't forget the individuals who are born into situations in which they have no chance to afford health care. There's not equal oppurtuinity in this capitlalistic society, which makes a white-male hierarchy with power and money. Higher taxes are the most efficient ways to take money and redistribute to balance greed. Competition can still drive the system but in a way that does not exclude, the first step is not to create better medicines or better drugs, but to give people who need medicine that we have now and can't afford it. They have no choice in the matter, and its easy to ignore them in the name of competition and progress.