the whole "blanks are killing the industry" thing...

[skategeezer]

more thoughts stolen from Sacklunch.com

they" hmm you sound like a blank board maker in disguise.

for the legit shops.

we have all made mistakes in the past, the brands have made mistakes letting riders ride blank boards (it started in the early to mid 90's) the many distributors and the brands have opened up distribution and the shops have responded selling large amounts of blanks and shop boards which has not supported the brands and pro's.
what can be done now? the brands are not going to cut back the current distribution, we all need to forget the past and focus on working together on a better future.This is the time for shops to work closer with the brands on pricing so you can make a proper margin on hard goods. The brands need to get you better product at the right price points for ALL your customers.If you don't want to forget the past and move on that is your choice.Maybe you should only sell blank and shop boards and say f*ck you to all the brands and the pros. that would be sad but its your choice.Back to top

Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: "the brands are not going to cut back the current distribution, we all need to forget the past and focus on working together on a better future..."

really means:

"hey, look, guys. we're already in the mall stores, making fat cash. we aren't going to abandon our mall store buddies so fast. what you, the independent skate shop, needs to do, is work with us [not, the other way around], so that we can keep exploiting you, and using you as the launch pad for our next round of "brands"........ which, of course, will end up at the mall store, anyway. so, we can make more fat cash on those brands, too...."

add to that: "hey, we know we've made dumb decisions. but, don't hold us accountable for them, okay? just, learn to forget all about that- until the next 'big skateboarding boom', when we'll surely do it all over again."

i was just at my local "sporting goods store" today (that also sells golf clubs, footballs, soccer shoes, cleats, and jock straps), and guess what i saw? products that i thought the "core retailers" had the exclusive on. oh, my bad! mall store buddies rule!

you guys that wrote this stupid "special report" really ought to try screwing yourselves once in a while, instead of the rest of us.

support your local independent skate shop. by, and for, skateboarders.

[Slim]

The man nailed it. Why spend so much more on a pro deck when the only difference is how it looks? A blank board performs just as well, I'm not going to money.

That's the thing though: a blank deck doesn't always perform just as well. Of course it may perform just as well for a lot of skaters who are just walking around with it or pushing down the street in a nice, mellow manner. But at the intermediate skater level and above, there is a difference in many blanks and "pro" boards from the better companies: they last longer, they have more "pop", they resist warping better, etc.

Yes, there are some blanks made at the same woodshops as the pro boards and they are going to be the same. But there are a lot that are made on a budget and more and more blanks imported from China. The wood isn't as good, the glues aren't as good. And besides, they were made in China and many of us are against that simply for political, human rights type issues.

[msk]

Yes, there are some blanks made at the same woodshops as the pro boards and they are going to be the same. But there are a lot that are made on a budget and more and more blanks imported from China. The wood isn't as good, the glues aren't as good.

The problem is that many pro models are also now made in China. So its possible to buy a blank or shop deck that really IS better than a pro model. As you pointed out, many companies don't indicate where the deck was made, so depending on the brand, you may be just as likely to get a Chinese made board when you buy a pro model as when you buy a blank.

For the last several years, my freestyle boards have been blanks made by Madrid (first one bought at Vans, the rest bought directly from Jerry Madrid). Same wood, same glue, etc. And from trying out various boards, I've found they're better than many US made pro models from other shops, let alone the Chinese made ones...

I'm not sure the growing trend of the "boutique/garage" skate company that has arose as an alternative has turned out to be a fully positive thing. With all these companies starting up in the last five years or so to sell to the old school skater or the longboard skater, we've strengthened the situation where a skate company is not a manufacturer, but simply some guy who picks up his phone and orders stuff from a woodshop or wheel shop and has his company's name screened on it, putting yet another middle man in the sales chain between manufacturer and skater (and thus either raising prices skaters have to pay, or lowering profits for the manufacturer and skate shop owner).

Some of these boutique companies do press their own wood, and many of the mainstream companies also do the "phone the woodshop" deal. At least there's a bit more value added by a company like Gravity or Skaterbuilt having decks made, because these aren't shapes and sizes that would be available otherwise. The middleman approach only takes away value when they offer the same thing as someone else does...

[Slob-air]

A brand is one thing, a shop deck is another. To me it's like getting a new car from the dealership with the dealer's name painted across the whole car. Lame. I don't want to ride that or drive that.

Rip City and the former Old Star in Santa Monica created brands with cool graphics, not shop decks with an uninspired name painted across it in an uninspired manner—which is the case with most shops.

[pyrate]

[msk]

just to clarify... if you like a pro or company and want to support them by buying a pro board thats great!
but if you buy an identical product for less because you want to skate and dont care about pros/co.s or cause your poor you shouldnt be blamed for killing the industry.

everyone who skates is supporting the industry IMO

That's the way I see it. If I buy a deck, regardless of whether its a blank or a pro model, a woodshop made that deck, and got paid for it.

Based on the arguments I've heard from the companies that feel threatened, I've come to the conclusion that *I* was the one who killed skateboarding back in 1980. I didn't buy pro models, in fact I generally didn't buy boards in the 70s. I made my own, partly because at first I couldn't afford the boards I wanted, and partly because I believed I could make a better board. So I made my own, others wanted them, and I found myself in business for a few years. I had a small company, but no pros. I built decks for people that wanted something that they couldn't buy at the local shop. So not only did I not "support the industry", I took business away from it, and, according to the mainstream industry, "didn't give anything back to skating"- that is, unless you want to count giving somebody the board they really wanted, at a fair price.

Which is what I feel the industry owes skaters: good gear at a fair price. I don't need videos, wild graphics, and especially some sort of "image", in order to skate, I need good decks, trucks, and wheels. The industry has it backwards. We don't really owe the pros anything, they owe *US*. The fact that any of us buys anything with their names on it at all is what keeps them from a boring cubicle job...

[skategeezer]

so, where does everyone see this going?

[MrCokesNSmokes]

Sort of like the Titanic, only faster.

[Slim]

Unfortunately it's probably inevitable that except for the rare case of custom made items and fringe items, skateboards will become just another commodity, just another "sporting good" and be mainly made in China (and other exploited labor nations) and sold here by mega-corporations and guys in suits.

Probably the only way to fight this is to work to preserve the skater owned and operated skate business. So...in a way, I hope they succeed in their attempts to hold on to market share against imported "blanks". I think they are ridiculous and yes, they shot themselves in the foot, and yes there are way too many "pros" and all that stuff. But the alternative is a non-skating business man run skate business. That just strikes me as wrong.

One thing is for sure: if the current mainstream skate industry dies, no new homegrown industry will be able to rise up and take its place like happened in the early 80s. It's just too different of a business climate in the USA now and no one could do what Fausto and Novak did in the early 80s with Thrasher, Indy, Spitfire, Thunder, Real, Anti-hero, Krooked, Venture, and NHS, Santa Cruz, OJ, Bullet, SMA (for a time), and all the other brands and products these two guys' companies have brought to market, largely manufactured right here in Nor Cal. Likewise, no one would attempt to or be able to pull off what George Powell did in Santa Barbara - a full in house skateboard deck and wheel manufacturing operation.

The best we can hope for is that the industry consolidates and that companies like NHS and the DLX empire stay in business and become even larger players and that their power will help them maintain a large percentage of manufacturing here in the USA. In the longboard market we might have big players like Sector 9 or Gravity. Naturally it's almost inevitable that more production will move offshore as globalization kicks in even more, but at least maybe we'll see something similar to what we see in the surf industry: large mega-corporations, but at least they are founded by and run by surfers and therefore retain a little tiny bit of "soul" in their operations. ("soul" being defined as any motivation for the existence of the company other than simply making money).

[shapeshifter]

...no one would attempt to or be able to pull off... a full in house skateboard deck and wheel manufacturing operation.

this may still be possible given that a different approach is taken toward that same goal. i've always thought that paradigms were a good description for loose change.

[Slim]

Which is what I feel the industry owes skaters: good gear at a fair price. I don't need videos, wild graphics, and especially some sort of "image", in order to skate, I need good decks, trucks, and wheels. The industry has it backwards. We don't really owe the pros anything, they owe *US*. The fact that any of us buys anything with their names on it at all is what keeps them from a boring cubicle job...

I hear you, and we're probably closer on this issue than on any issue ever here at silverfish (ha!), but I personally see a lot of value in the "pro" skater paradigm. Some of the things I like about it include: The existence of a sub-set of our society that lives for and by doing something creative with their bodies and not on a "straight" business lifestyle; the R&D role they play for manufacturers (I know MSK will poo-poo this idea but it's always been key - from Blackhart's work on the Indy truck and with wheels to today's street pros testing new composite deck constructions in ways the average guy on the street simply can't); and perhaps most importantly, simply the role models they set as far as pushing the limits of what is possible on a skateboard;

I actually think the pros (real ones) should be paid even more. Guys like Olson and Blackhart should be the multi-millionaires for what they created in the 80s, Gonz and Gurrero and Natas should be as well for what they created in the transition to the 90s (and today). But instead, these guys have had to have "day jobs" in the industry while the business men, skaters or not, like Novak, Fausto, and (my late friend) Klindt make the big dough. Clearly, these guys were brilliant business men and very, very creative in their own right (especially Klindt for Fausto in the 90s and Novak had Shuirman before his tragic early death). But they have built their companies on the backs of pro skaters.

Not only would we not have the big, successful nor cal companies we have today without their pros, we wouldn't have the large skateboard scene we have that has led to cities spending money on building public skateparks. They may not matter to many of you longboarders here, but it means a hell of a lot to me. The scene, the market, needed to grow quite large before the public skatepark boom was going to happen. The existence of pro skaters that could be marketed as cool characters and show potential beginners what might be possible in their future on a skateboard (through demos, contests, and videos) should they take it up, is responsible for this major growth in skateboarding.

And so on...

[ska1234]

I skateboard and i don't seem to care weather it's on a pro board or not. That being said I'd rather realy on a brand i know is of high quality then a blank deck ive never skate before.

[Slim]

this may still be possible given that a different approach is taken toward that same goal. i've always thought that paradigms were a good description for loose change.

Well, someone could always try what Comet did: get a city (Oakland) to give them a bunch of money to start up or loan it at very reasonable rates, in hopes of keeping some of the city's traditional manufacturing base alive. I'm curious what other approaches you might be thinking of that would allow a start up skateboarding deck, truck, and wheel manufacturer to be able to overcome their massive start-up costs and compete against cheap imports.

[shapeshifter]

you hit the nail on the head for a major part of the equation, though there are a lot more involved in bringing such lofty aspirations into play. a dash of originality and the ability to take advantage of emerging trends are also tools for success. i guess the best way to do this is by example, it's something we'll just have to see...

[mojomuskrat]

This issue is getting old, fast, especially since almost none of us are street skaters who care about who is hot and whose name is splattered across the bottom of the board, so we all are pretty much at a consensus.

Are the companies selling blank t-shirts hurting the fashion industry? If I can buy a blank t-shirt, and it keeps my nipples from freezing off, Tommy Hilfiger can complain all he wants that I didn't pay extra to have his name advertised on my chest, no matter how nice his sweatshops are. And you don't see him eating mac and cheese every night. For that matter, Kraft mac n' cheese isn't going out of business any time soon, even though there are blank (read: off brands) boxes of pasta and powdered cheese.

I was at zumiez thursday, since I needed some soft risers stat. There were 3 10 year olds in there with their dad, buying everything they could that said "bam" on it. They needed wheels, the asked if they had "any wheels that say bam?" As long as you have people who are suckered into paying more for a brand name by mass marketing, you will have an industry. If the industry is in trouble, its because the marketing failed.

For the rest of us, the "niche market" as they say, damn Bam and the horse he rode in on. I've never watched an X-games, or an episode of jackass; I ride what works for me, what I like, and they don't provide what I need. Even if they did, I'm not going to pay more to have his name advertised on my board, just like I don't pay more so my T-shirt says abercrombie and fitch.

As long as there are companies making quality products for reasonable prices, people will buy them. If you can successfully market a brand name such that people will pay more for it, great. Enjoy it while you can. But don't be fooled into thinking that well-marketed pro brand names are keeping any industry from collapsing. There will always be those of us wearing plain ol' blank t-shirts.

[animal chin]

If they made a blank earthwing, I would buy it, but they don't.

[revelation2]

...this entire "situation" drives me insane....but mojomuskrat hit the nail on the head.

This issue is getting old, fast,

If the industry is in trouble, its because the marketing failed.

I've never watched an X-games, or an episode of jackass; I ride what works for me, what I like, and they don't provide what I need.

There will always be those of us wearing plain ol' blank t-shirts.

Dude, I freaking love you

[msk]

I hear you, and we're probably closer on this issue than on any issue ever here at silverfish (ha!), but I personally see a lot of value in the "pro" skater paradigm. Some of the things I like about it include: The existence of a sub-set of our society that lives for and by doing something creative with their bodies and not on a "straight" business lifestyle; the R&D role they play for manufacturers (I know MSK will poo-poo this idea but it's always been key - from Blackhart's work on the Indy truck and with wheels to today's street pros testing new composite deck constructions in ways the average guy on the street simply can't); and perhaps most importantly, simply the role models they set as far as pushing the limits of what is possible on a skateboard;

Actually, you're wrong on the "I know MSK will poo-poo this idea" statement. The Blackhart example you posted is EXACTLY what I was talking about. And yes, there are a few companies that are trying to do something different. But some of those still resort to just telling you who the team is in their advertising, rather than telling you what makes their deck better.

But many of the mainstream companies aren't doing anything different. It becomes marketing, pure and simple, when the same deck just gets different graphics. Many pros don't even ride what is sold as their model, which to me is really ripping off the customer. You mentioned in another thread that "a pro model used to mean something". When it was designed for their specific needs, it did. When its something that only has your name on it, and you don't even ride it, it doesn't mean anything. Why not sell what your pros really ride? Some pros don't even have a clue as to what they're riding. They just get handed a board and told its their model. Or when you have pro model trucks that are simply a different color. At this point, its not "here's something we really worked hard on to improve", but instead "buy this because its got my name on it"

I actually think the pros (real ones) should be paid even more. Guys like Olson and Blackhart should be the multi-millionaires for what they created in the 80s, Gonz and Gurrero and Natas should be as well for what they created in the transition to the 90s (and today). But instead, these guys have had to have "day jobs" in the industry while the business men, skaters or not, like Novak, Fausto, and (my late friend) Klindt make the big dough. Clearly, these guys were brilliant business men and very, very creative in their own right (especially Klindt for Fausto in the 90s and Novak had Shuirman before his tragic early death). But they have built their companies on the backs of pro skaters.

And here's the crux of the situation: where does all these millions that all these pros deserve come from? I've heard repeatedly that pro skaters deserve to make the same kind of money that pro athletes in other sports make. Yet, the general skateboarding populace is opposed to doing what it takes to make that money available.

How can a football team pay a star quarterback several million dollars a year? First, the team gets a lot of revenue from ticket sales. The team also gets money from outside corporations in exchange for banners, signs, even naming rights to the stadium. Are we going to pay $20-$200 every time we want to see Bob Burnquist or Ryan Sheckler skate? Especially at something like the "Bank of America Skatepark"?

But some of you are saying to yourselves "I don't have to pay to watch pro football. I'm sitting right here watching the Super Bowl for free, on my TV". Right, you didn't pay, but somebody else did. CBS paid a lot of money to get the broadcast rights, and in turn, they're charging Pepsi, Bud Light, Chevy, and lots of others even more. So a bunch of major corporations paid for the ticket for your Sony-side seat. And I get a rather strong impression that most skaters generally don't want Pepsi and McDonald's having anything to do with skating.

Let's turn this around. Imagine that admission to the stadium is now free, with no more corporate advertising on the walls. No more games broadcast every week, with maybe the exception being the Super Bowl (on ESPN2). Instead, players' salaries will now be paid by royalties from merchandise with their names on it. But its all got to be football related- balls, jerseys, helmets, etc. No watches, cell phones, sodas, all-purpose food processors. Aside from the fact that the quarterback is most likely going to get the vast majority of sales, leaving others on the team getting almost nothing, nobody is going to be getting rich.

So where is all the money supposed to come from? Virtually every other sport has lots of outside sponsorship. Some, like cycling and NASCAR, have almost all of the money coming from outside the bike or auto industry. But skateboarding, as its set up, will not allow that. And unfortunately, you can't do the opposite without expecting the opposite results...

[rawls]

"If the industry is in trouble, its because the marketing failed."

I agree, this aint a consumer fight. this is a mainstream market fight. they got themselves into it. Since the mainstream market can only follow (or react to) innovation. they cannot control anything. In other words, if it aint a cookie cutter procees they cant deal with it. Next, since no innovation (worthy of really driving sales up) is occurring, the mainstream market has nothing to react to, to clear up the problem. So the best they can do is fuss at the consumer. this is an equation or case study in some marketing class, it has to be.

the only ingenuity the mainstream can come up with is a sales ploy, its all marketing. The stategy is pros and brands. this is what they are relying on to drive the profit. This means, with no innovation, they can only adjust graphics (since it is a cookie cutter product) and showcase the pros for the consumer and offer products that enables them to look like the pro (the lifestyle and softgoods market). In fact as the market gets more and more saturated, the only thing they can do to drive up sales is provide more and pros to the consumer, in hopes of maintaining a profit generator.

When the consumer begins to bail out, they have no fallback. Why? because they have no real history. They dont know skateboarding, they only know their marketing strategy, thats it. To them, the real skaters are their pros. the consumer is merely the buyer of their pros. Hence, reinforcing their comments about not supporting pros will kill the market. In their mainstream world it is 100% true, and 100% valid. The pros and monthly graphic changes are the only thing they have going in the hardgoods market. If the pros begin to lose their effect, the whole ball stops rolling. In the real skateboard world, everything will keep going fine. Even if you are a street skater, it will be fine. If you are a looker or mallboarder, you will lose site of the picture quickly, as the mainstream market struggles to find an outlet to drive a profit. and you will most likely fall into the "support the pros" mindset.