Setting standards for build to order vendors.

[MalakaiKingston]

I think we can all agree there is a problem.

Builders show up, fulfill a few orders and then either vanish, or slowly break contact with customers. Due to whatever the circumstances this community has seen at least 5 builders leave and fail to deliver what must be thousands of dollars in goods.

So far all we have done is to try our best too pick up the pieces and provide some damage control when things go bad.

What can we as a community do to help protect the customer and support the retailer so this does not happen. What preemptive measures can we take?

[flannelman]

seems like a good idea. when i bought my three piece i was up in the air about saving money and buying from Arcane. glad i didn't.

personally i like the way Russ does it. he makes a deck, then First Pm gets it. that is a small scale supply meeting demand. that seems to be a safer route for buyer. you see the product, and you get it. but them you might get a Nate the Great guy who never ships it.

i don't think it can be moderated by the moderators to the extent needed. its not like the mods are the IRS and can stick their hands into the smucks and latent builders pockets and produce money, or products.

i think it has to be a smart consumer thing to. before i ever commit in the Feed the quiver, i PM the guy for more pictures, or something. if there is zero reply, then i don't look at his products. if there is, i write back. i make sure that there is a connection between me and the seller. buying from faceless people is sadly hard.

i wonder if Paypal has a way to regulate this. i know this would be one hell of a job, but what if a few people would work with paypal to make sure that transactions were completed. and if they weren't done properly, the mod can shift payment back. the money stays in limbo until the transaction is complete. kind of like taking a bet, you have someone to hold the money.

on well, i should get to bed. i took some nyquil cuz i am getting a cold. eyes feels heavy. its only 1 in the morning.

goodnight.

[MalakaiKingston]

personally i like the way Russ does it. he makes a deck, then First Pm gets it. that is a small scale supply meeting demand. that seems to be a safer route for buyer. you see the product, and you get it. but them you might get a Nate the Great guy who never ships it.

I think that is the way one off board building should work, board is made / delivered / then paid for. Then however that leaves the builder hoping the buyer doesn't flake.

i wonder if Paypal has a way to regulate this. i know this would be one hell of a job, but what if a few people would work with paypal to make sure that transactions were completed. and if they weren't done properly, the mod can shift payment back. the money stays in limbo until the transaction is complete. kind of like taking a bet, you have someone to hold the money.

goodnight.

I think it is a great idea but it gives us a little too involved in peoples financial and some of these builders need the fund to build the boards.

[SteveC]

I'm generally against selling something you haven't made yet.
unless it's got buyer-specific features.

while this does put some burden on the builder, he can still sell the board if the original buyer pulls out.

[MalakaiKingston]

I'm generally against selling something you haven't made yet.

How can we encourage people to do that?

[SeanML]

How can we encourage people to do that?

Make it part of the TOS for vendor accounts. You sell before you make, you get the boot.

And as for vendors needing the money to complete the project... that's their problem, not the buyer's. Businesses should not confuse customers with investors.

[Momona Boe]

The way Fatboy does it is that the order is written, the board is made, photos are sent to the buyer, and if buyer approves they pay and board is sent - usually with a tracking number.

We have ended up with a few decks that the buyer flaked on, but we usually just sell them off to someone else or use them as contest swag. It happens. A couple of decks we sat on for months till the buyer finally paid and we shipped. We also got burned several times by shipping before payment. And not just by individuals - we once chased a somewhat major company for payment on decks we built for them for the better part of a year!

We don't ask for full payment up front. Occasionally we'll ask for a deposit if we have to special order certain woods or trucks or something, just because if the buyer bails it's not something we usually stock. And sometimes the minimum order for components is a factor when it's something that we don't carry. Luckily extra Splitfire trucks aren't too hard to sell off.

As I suggested before, at the very least Silverfish should have home adresses and phone numbers of any builder that wants to hawk his wares on the site. Those lines of communication must remain open if the builder intends to do business here. If you can't do that for Kai and Bas, then you really have no right to advertise on Silverfish.

[pennypusher]

the best way would be to have a silverfish escrow acct..
1. customer buys deck..pays escrow acct..
2. email goes to builder.. ex. funds received for a 38 inch whatever.
3 . builder builds deck in a reasonable time frame..lets say 6-8 weeks.
4 . builder sends silverfish a tracking number that pckg has gone out.
5. silverfish releases funds to builder
6 silverfish charges a 2.50 fee for this service
7 if deck not shipped in 8 weeks then funds returned to buyer minus the 2.50 fee for a bit of peace of mind.

make it rule with builders that they sign up for this program and put a disclosure that all transaction done outside of this are not the fishes problem if a buyer gets dupped.
some would probably go for it ,it is a small thing to ask of the builder for the customer.
the problem is some small builders run things like a pyramid or ponzi..buying new materials and being three decks behind ,so they need new funds constantly to catch up.
then a personal issue arises and funds get used to pay for grandmas new walker, they fall further behind and ba boom we are toasted.
this would at least insure that the builders involved are some what stable

[Momona Boe]

/\ that's a little complicated and holds Silverfish responsible.

PayPal kinda accomplishes the same thing

Buyers can dispute through them

[TIMORNE]

When Im contracted to build a board,they are custom one off's.So I require half down and balance on delivery.But I also don't & won't promote myself here.
If silverfish wants to let builders sell here,I feel the board must be finished,ready to ship,then sold in the feed my quiver forum.

[pennypusher]

you two have been around long enough to be the exception here
i have only been on this site a yr or so and seen 5 or so builders flake out on guys .
half down even seems very fair,you guys gotta live also.

it really is simple, everything is e mail notification...i would do it for .50 per transaction.
This is part of what i do all day anyway.
Then again i could split off to costa rica with the funds any time and send you guys a post card

[8ftbed]

}}removed nose from other's business{{

[SpeedFiend]

what builders have left the community?

[MalakaiKingston]

what builders have left the community?

This thread is not for that discussion.

Thank you for understanding my tyrannical demand.

[MalakaiKingston]

The way Fatboy does it is that the order is written, the board is made, photos are sent to the buyer, and if buyer approves they pay and board is sent - usually with a tracking number.

We have ended up with a few decks that the buyer flaked on, but we usually just sell them off to someone else or use them as contest swag. It happens. A couple of decks we sat on for months till the buyer finally paid and we shipped. We also got burned several times by shipping before payment. And not just by individuals - we once chased a somewhat major company for payment on decks we built for them for the better part of a year!

We don't ask for full payment up front. Occasionally we'll ask for a deposit if we have to special order certain woods or trucks or something, just because if the buyer bails it's not something we usually stock. And sometimes the minimum order for components is a factor when it's something that we don't carry. Luckily extra Splitfire trucks aren't too hard to sell off.

As I suggested before, at the very least Silverfish should have home adresses and phone numbers of any builder that wants to hawk his wares on the site. Those lines of communication must remain open if the builder intends to do business here. If you can't do that for Kai and Bas, then you really have no right to advertise on Silverfish.

How do we encourage board builders follow in your way?

The problem is when the builder is gone their phone number and address hardly ever helps, if they are dodging us, they are prolly dodging everyone. The only thing we can truly due is remove their access to the site, provide transaction info that we have, and point the member towards CC or PP for a dispute.

I fully agree with you on having the addy and ph # but how do we define a board builder and someone just slinging allot of crap? Where do we start the accounting?

[Momona Boe]

Hmmmmm..........Maybe you can do something like give builders the "Silverfish Seal of Approval" to distinguish them from a kid with a jigsaw makin' boards. In order to get that Seal you hafta provide the info and stay in regular touch with Kai.

Anyone who buys from "builders" outside of the Seal does so at their own risk.

I know, these are weak and really provide no real recourse for anyone.

I'll try to think of other ideas.

And let's face it, things happen. A builder is going along great taking care of all his customers, then health issues or a flood or pestilence or whatever happens. But if they can relay this information to one place, like Kai, and let him know what's going on with his life, maybe problems can be avoided.

Maybe set up a dealer thread with a little background on builders and their rules regarding sales - deposit required, money up front, COD, pay before ship, etc.

Basically if someone wants to pimp their $hit here, then they hafta go through Kai or Bas. If a "builder" circumvents that and works through PM's or something, then you guys can't feel responsible.

Look, you really can't control these "builders", but you can feel good about yourself and recommend builders that you trust. But you hafta earn that trust.

[SpeedFiend]

This thread is not for that discussion.

Thank you for understanding my tyrannical demand.

so i can make a thread

"board builders who have left the community"?

[Camel]

Hmmmmm..........Maybe you can do something like give builders the "Silverfish Seal of Approval" to distinguish them from a kid with a jigsaw makin' boards. In order to get that Seal you hafta provide the info and stay in regular touch with Kai.

I like this idea. Here's the thing though, Arcane would have had that seal at his height on SF. His story wasn't typical by any means, but that isn't for this thread, as Castro.. I mean Kai said earlier. [dictator humor]

As a builder, Kai is right. Sometimes I need a few bucks for materials to get a set of racks built. I typically cut up a bunch of materials and do the finish work when the order is placed. Sometimes I slack on emails, but I NEVER leave anyone hanging for more than a day or so. (I say I slack because i have a blackberry and have to answer for work pretty immediately.)

There would have to be a monthly review process to both accept new applications and review current seal holders. (Rodgon can design the seal, lol.) This puts a burden on SF staff to do this review and somewhat holds them accountable for such a review and opinion. The review would have to include: orders placed, orders filled, customer complaints, etc... It would be the BBB-SF basically.

Hopefully I get a seal, always wanted a pet...

[MalakaiKingston]

so i can make a thread

"board builders who have left the community"?

Yea but please do so in the appropriate forum, this forum is for constructive discussions about site issues or complaining about me.

[MalakaiKingston]

I'll try to think of other ideas.

And let's face it, things happen. A builder is going along great taking care of all his customers, then health issues or a flood or pestilence or whatever happens. But if they can relay this information to one place, like Kai, and let him know what's going on with his life, maybe problems can be avoided.

Look, you really can't control these "builders", but you can feel good about yourself and recommend builders that you trust. But you hafta earn that trust.

I both love your idea and loathe it, on one hand the main issue is we learn about this stuff long after it is an issue, like after 3-19 orders have been lost so knowing what is going on is a great idea and keeping a DB of builder information is ESSENTIAL.

On the other hand... I loathe the idea of people not having the professionalism to keep their own #### straight.

Honestly and this is the best I can think of (apart from the builder info db) I think that there should be an order deadline, if you operate on the fish you have one month to deliver boards (barring special situations). This could keep us from having to wait 3-10 months to finally ban a negligent company, they would hit the radar way sooner.