stiffness?

[I hate Cops.]

im planning on getting into slalom soon and i wanted to know some of ur preferences on flex, ive seen riders with alot and some with extremely stiff boards. im leaning to a stiffer deck. but any other suggestions would be good. thanks

[bpz]

Stiff decks mean all the energy you put into your board will be directly translated into a powerful pump. When you're pumping really hard on a flexy board, you can lose a lot of energy just making the board bounce. I ride an Axe II, it's about as stiff as slalom decks can get, and I love it for hybrid and bigger stuff. My friend has a Roe Crossfire set up for TS with a little bit of flex, it's more forgiving and I like that as well. I'm planning on picking up a flexier deck for TS, but I'm totally sticking to a stiff deck for hybrid and GS.

When it comes down to it, it's usually just preference. That being said, I haven't heard of too many fast guys running super flexy boards; they're usually on the medium-flexy to stiff side.

[crawdad62]

I hate to make things even more confusing but I'm exactly the opposite of Sofa. I like my tighter slalom board to be stiff and the longer course to have a bit more flex.

[Rustyfriend]

i agree with crawdad. even for the bigger stuff, i still don't want a super flexy board. if it is going to be flexy, make it be a responsive flex.

after getting a stiff deck in the fall and feeling the difference: I am NEVER going back to a limp piece of wood

[Crappysurfer]

its good for your board the have a little "pop" but flex like a loaded will only slow you down.

[Joe & Nick]

Cops,

It is personal preference. I'm riding stiff (Fatboy) for everything. Sofa has his preferences and is getting fast.

That being said, the standard take is stiff for tight, springy for GS.
I've even read Ritchie Carasco, inventor of the Axe, say the same.

The idea is in tight you need the board to react quickly. Flex slows that reaction down in TS. On the other hand, flex in GS allows a snap and acceleration out of turns around the wide cones.

For your purposes, I'd suggest stiff. It's my opinion that you can ride a board that is a little stiffer than you need better than flxier than you need.

The only exception is if you order a board with camber, the flex need to be right or you end up ridding too high.

Joe

[ChrisChaput]

I think that flex and camber are highly overrated. I like my boards stiff and without any torsional twisting. To me, a board should be the following three things:

1. A nice place to put your feet.
2. A nice place to mount your trucks.
3. A nice lever to act as the interface between your feet and your trucks.

I want to be in charge of the all the forces acting on my wheels and trucks. I don't want a board springing back when what I want is more downforce. And I don't want to attempt to put the hammer down, and get a bending boarding instead. If courses were more uniform in the side to side weighting amd unweighting, a snappy flex could add some "pop" to rythmic pumping, but I'm finding that as the wheels and trucks and bushings get better and better, the need for flex from the board is mininal.

Call me a control freak, but I want complete control over who is driving the board.

[brainfartalerts]

All right Chris, you're a control freak.

But here is an additional question I wrestle with when building boards;

What is the sweet spot between weight of the board and stiffness?

You know I agree a hundred percent on tosional stiffness but at what point do you trade weight in the board for overall stiffness especially as the board size increases?

[crawdad62]

if it is going to be flexy, make it be a responsive flex.

That's the key. I've ridden boards that seem to get "off rhythm" when going through a course. What I mean is sometimes the board won't respond quick enough and when you're weighing in on a corner the board is still releasing and sort of fighting against you.

If you can get a board that's stiff but with some "stored energy flex" that releases at the correct time then I feel you're golden but that is a lot to ask for. So that's why I prefer stiffer boards.

[jeffb]

[ChrisChaput]

That's great that you like flex. It feels nice. I've found it to be counterproductive.

Skis and snowboards are very different from skateboards in that they set an arced and compressed edge into the snow when they turn. The camber and flex helps them to release the edge and to set up a turn in the opposite direction. It's used with a weighting and unweighting motion on long skis and boards over 4 feet in length.

On a skateboard, the rails of the board are arced the other direction and don't touch the ground. The board is a lever. Skaters borrowed the idea of camber and flex from skiers in the '70s, and we're finally breaking away from all of their bad habits. Many slalom skaters use to take a small stance between the trucks to flex their boards. Some guys even rode in a modified parallel stance. But today, many of the fastest riders stand on their boards with their feet directly over their trucks, almost completely negating the opportunity for flex to help or hinder performance. Torsional twisting used to be viewed as something that would help keep your wheels flat on the ground and add traction. Now torsional twisting is looked upon as something that prevents a powerful skater from being able to drive for more speed.

There are many places where store energy is returned on a slalom board. Here is the reason why I don't like it to come in the form of a flexible deck:

1. I get returned energy from high rebound wheels "snapping" me back from a turn.
2. I get returned energy from high rebound bushings "snapping" me back from a turn.
3. Flex changes the geometry of both trucks, adding steering to both the front and the rear.

If a board is flexing or springing back when I don't want it to be, I have to compensate for it by waiting for it to settle. It's in control. If I have a stiff board, my body can better regulate the amount of energy given to the wheels and trucks. This energy can be dissipated all the way to the point of losing traction before I complete the turn.

What I'm saying here is that I have a preference. Of the four things that are storing energy (my deck, my wheels, my bushings, and myself), I find more control and speed by using the board as a lever instead of a spring, and by using the components underneath the deck more effectively. I hate anything that feels bouncy, and flimsy, and thin. I'm not even that worried about weight. My GS board weighs 10 pounds!

As someone who is trying to learn more and more about the wheels and trucks, it's also important to understand where we are getting performance gains. I'm choosing to eliminate flex in the deck so that I don't design equipment that only works well with flex.

[jeffb]

That's great that you like flex. It feels nice. I've found it to be counterproductive.

"That's great" I like flex? You being Condescending? Why you gotta be like that?


SNIP a rudimentary explaination of the difference between skiis and skateboards.

There are many places where store energy is returned on a slalom board. Here is the reason why I don't like it to come in the form of a flexible deck:

1. I get returned energy from high rebound wheels "snapping" me back from a turn.
2. I get returned energy from high rebound bushings "snapping" me back from a turn.
3. Flex changes the geometry of both trucks, adding steering to both the front and the rear.

If a board is flexing or springing back when I don't want it to be, I have to compensate for it by waiting for it to settle. It's in control. If I have a stiff board, my body can better regulate the amount of energy given to the wheels and trucks. This energy can be dissipated all the way to the point of losing traction before I complete the turn.

What I'm saying here is that I have a preference. Of the four things that are storing energy (my deck, my wheels, my bushings, and myself), I find more control and speed by using the board as a lever instead of a spring, and by using the components underneath the deck more effectively. I hate anything that feels bouncy, and flimsy, and thin. I'm not even that worried about weight. My GS board weighs 10 pounds!

As someone who is trying to learn more and more about the wheels and trucks, it's also important to understand where we are getting performance gains. I'm choosing to eliminate flex in the deck so that I don't design equipment that only works well with flex.

Given your admitted lopsided focus on wheels and trucks it's not surprising you'd want to remove the variables a board with flex pose. Flex though can amplify and focus energy you put into it and if it doesn't then you don't have the board, the technique or either right and it can be a long process finding and setting up that board and learning to use it. I agree with much of what you've said above and if you don't have the time, energy or inclination to pursue what is without doubt a more difficult path then by all means ride a plank.

I would be interested to see you ride sometime though to learn more about what you're pursuing. Carrasco rides a stiff deck and I like what he does a lot even though it's really different from what I'm trying to do.

I really should quit my job and come racing...

[telecaster]

I'd rather what's called "flex" be renamed "compliance" or "Micro
suspension" ... I like a deck that feels dead or damp. Something that doesn't really load up with energy to spit back at you...

I've ridden some lively cambered decks for TS, and given the right course... i.e. frequency, they just keep on accellerating till I can't keep up with the oscillation.... hopefully right at the finish line.

I, like jeffb, believe that using the deck to reduce the arc radius at the apex of turns, especially in GS is a good thing, but I too come from a skiing background and this just feels more natural to me. I've proven it to be faster for "myself" and it seems more forgiving, comfortable to go fast on.

Chris, I watched you race your STIFF 6 wheeler in Texas and I'm inclined to say that from my point of view your front wheels were "pushing" in the faster offsets.
I'm wondering if you used a pivoting fulcrum truck mount so the rear most truck
would keep contact, with a more flexible deck, would this have helped articulate the front steering angle enough to help the front wheels
keep tracking a bit deeper into those types of turns??

Moot point? since you won and all.......I'm just curious if you've tried this yet?

I enjoyed racing you as well as reading your musings.

Thanks, Tod

[I hate Cops.]

thanks for all ur help and opinions. im going to go with a board with little to no flex and im thinking about these 3, (give opinions on these too).

subsonic poliwog

sk8kings axe

insect gs

[Pinhead]

http://sk8kings.com/Merchant2/mercha...tegory_Code=SL

You might add the brown bomber to your list. I saw one at a race
and it seemed like a low camber deck that would be good with low
flex.

More flex for GS and less for TS but have never time tested
this.

What feels good may not always be fastest.

[ChrisChaput]

I'm not being condescending at all. Point. Counterpoint. Rational. Objective. Sharing experiences. Different things work for different people for different reasons. You like flex. I don't. My focus isn't lopsided. Boards have always been an integral part of the total system. There is a balance. But given the choice of an awesome board and crappy wheels and trucks, or awesome wheels and trucks on a plank, I'll take the plank every time.

But I'd rather not ride an absolute plank. A plank implies a flat board. Flat boards tend to flex and twist more than I'd like. A certain amount of concave, spoon in the nose and kick in the tail can solve that in a heartbeat. In addition to the structural integrity supplied by the compound curves, this also helps to lock your feet into place, and provides a different type of lever. Cutting up elongated 7 ply and 8 ply pool and park boards is a great way to start making boards.

Here's what I tend to like, relative to "the norm".

1. Wood decks
2. Tall decks
3. Wide decks
4. Stiff decks
5. Rockered decks
6. Narrow trucks
7. Big wheels
8. Same duros all around

I'm a horrible person to try and design an "uber deck" for. I don't like just about every thing that is sacred in slalom history.

1. I'm not wild about glass/carbon/graphite/composite decks. I LOVE the way that wood absorbs vibration and dampens the ride. I like wood risers more than plastic or rubber or urethane.

2. I like the leverage of a platform that's higher off the ground. I'm getting better traction and the cones are narrower up there!

3. If a board's not wide enough to provide the leverage that I want, I'm SOL. But even if it's "too" wide, I can always back off of the lean a bit, and it won't oversteer.

4. Stiff decks mean that my geometry and my wheelbase are constant. When a flexible board is depressed in the middle of a turn, the wheelbase is augmented, but the trucks will steer more. I think of this as robbing Peter to pay Paul, but there are plenty of people who like flex.

5. Camber is one of those things that looks cool like on a ski, but doesn't feel good under my feet. I'd rather have a board that's flat and stays flat, or that starts rockered and stays rockered.

6. Wide trucks are stable, but they "push" in a turn. Narrow trucks (3.5" / 90mm) can turn quicker and seem to provide better traction as well.

7. When the trucks are set up well and have great wheels and bearings on them, the wheels can be bigger (70mm to 76mm) and really fly.

8. I usually like the same duro in the front as in the back. I'm looking for both roll speed and traction and when I find the best wheel for the job, any other wheel is only "second best".

So you probably won't see me getting all excited about a lightweight foam core, carbon fiber flexible streamlined cambered board with wide trucks and small split duro wheels. It may look like a rocket but it could get steam-rolled by a guy on a blunt force trauma log.

And BTW, the GS in Texas wasn't on a hill that was really steep enough to warrant the 6 wheeler, so I had to really push/force that board through the course. I could have used a quicker turning board with better results. My front truck was only 45 degrees and can't turn that quickly. I put my back foot directly over the middle of the rear trucks, so any flex in the board would have to come from my front foot being behind my front truck, where the board is at its widest and has the most concave. I'd rather just add steering to the front than try to flex the board into submission and solve the problem of the rearmost axle lifting.

If what I like works as well as I think it does, this could be great news for guys who want a pretty bullet-proof setup that won't break the bank. We're an inexpensive back truck away from affordable completes that can win a race. We're getting closer...

[telecaster]

blunt force trauma log.

I should have rode one of those when I met you in the round of 4

[jeffb]

I'm not being condescending at all. Point. Counterpoint. Rational. Objective. Sharing experiences.

I may not like ultra stiff decks (stuck in the'70's?...maybe so) but make no mistake I have a great deal of respect for your observations on the subject. You're so adamant I couldn't help poking at ya a little though.

I'm used to a harder wheel than a 86a on the front but having ridden those new wheels of yers the last month or so and thinking about what you've said here I do see where you're coming from more now not making them harder.

[NBtodd]

also, don't forget the Euros...the guys at Indiana (Maurus) and Airflow (Chris) ride boards that are thinner,longer and flexier than the American norm..and they fly. So it is a matter of taste and experience and learning what works for you and how to take that to a higher level. There is no SINGLE answer. You will develop your taste, your likes, your style and your preferences...and some guy from the other side of the world will show up and smoke you riding something opposite of your prefs...and that's pretty cool, cause next time, you'll smoke him.

True?

And, yes, I know that Luca rides a stiffy.

[Directive0]

also, don't forget the Euros...the guys at Indiana (Maurus) and Airflow (Chris) ride boards that are thinner,longer and flexier than the American norm..and they fly. So it is a matter of taste and experience and learning what works for you and how to take that to a higher level. There is no SINGLE answer. You will develop your taste, your likes, your style and your preferences...and some guy from the other side of the world will show up and smoke you riding something opposite of your prefs...and that's pretty cool, cause next time, you'll smoke him.

True?

And, yes, I know that Luca rides a stiffy.

that was an awesome post, what a ******* truth!