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  1. #41
    Addicted Cruiser BgSurfer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    I will assume you are asking Yan Poirier, not me.

    However, one of the surfboard builders at Swaylocks.com uses UPOL to get nice spray finishes on his surfboards.

    FTR the foam core photo is not mine it is a build by hoch92000. I have been designing a stringered foam core build for a while now and thought Poirier could suggest a glassing schedule for such a build.
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  3. #42
    Addicted Cruiser Yan Poirier's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hairyandlloyd32 View Post
    What are you using for top coat?? I'm using a two part urethane for finish, looking for a good product that can be sprayed out of a gun for a finish
    I'm sorry, but I can't answer that question!

  4. #43
    Addicted Cruiser Yan Poirier's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by BgSurfer View Post
    I have a question Mr. Poirier.

    1. What glassing schedule would you use for a foam core, top and bottom? Composite skins laminated directly to foam with wood stringers and very little flex. Like this concept:

    http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/z...2/IMG_2287.jpg

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    2. Or a foam core with no stringers? Very little flex...
    I don't have much experience with foamcores! I would combine fiberglass and carbon. Something like 10oz twill glass on the foam, then a 8 oz 8HS carbon (harness satin weave). But it depends on the WB, the thickness of your foam and the 3D shape in the foam... In that layup configuration, you would need about 5/8'' foam thickness for a 28'' WB. But again, i'm not a pro when it comes to foamcores.

    Anyone can answer that?

  5. #44
    Addicted Cruiser hoch92000's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    That's a cambered and very flexy pumping board. Can't remember if it's 1/2 or 5/8" thick. 29" WB. It's got three layers of 20oz triax knitted glass, one on top, one bottom, and one woven into the core.

    You really just need 0, 45, and 45 degree fibers. Just get some triax 20 oz knitted and be done with it.

    The typical glass out there is woven. It's better for cosmetic work, but does provide some stiffness.

    Carbon fiber is much stiffer, but more challenging to work with. For one thing, you can't tell if it's wet. It takes experience.

    A core is a core. Most foams, and even cardboard will work.
    Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors. You must try them all before finding the one you like the best.

  6. #45
    Addicted Cruiser cirrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    A core is a core. Most foams, and even cardboard will work.
    Be carefull with shear strenght though, PU/PS foams can fail relativly easy. Only hefty layups(no flex) can prevent that somewhat.

    1. What glassing schedule would you use for a foam core, top and bottom? Composite skins laminated directly to foam with wood stringers and very little flex. Like this concept:

    http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/z...2/IMG_2287.jpg

    Attachment 139484


    2. Or a foam core with no stringers? Very little flex...
    750 grams triaxial e-glass is readily available and more than strong enough gives you about 1-1.1 mm skin thickness. Standard reinforcement for kiteboards and snowboards. Wood stringers are nice for some vibration dampening
    Flex would mostly be dependant on your core thickness.

    What are you using for top coat?? I'm using a two part urethane for finish, looking for a good product that can be sprayed out of a gun for a finish
    I use "de IJssel DD-lak" wich is a 2 part PU paint which is sprayable, but I use a roller. Similar in the US is Awlgrip topcoat. "de IJssel" came out better in tests, but those were dutch tests and "de IJssel" is dutch... :P

  7. #46
    Addicted Cruiser hoch92000's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by cirrus View Post
    Be carefull with shear strenght though, PU/PS foams can fail relativly easy. Only hefty layups(no flex) can prevent that
    I assume PU/PS means polyurethane and polystyrene. I have actually had very good success with those as well as PE (polyethylene) cores that flex. I have had some with polystyrene that have held up for years. You just fortify a bit more at the stress points, but the lay ups were far from hefty. Perhaps you can share your personal experience with these cores in longboard building.
    Last edited by hoch92000; 12-20-2013 at 09:28 PM.
    Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors. You must try them all before finding the one you like the best.

  8. #47
    Addicted Cruiser cirrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Skin buckling, compression failure, once I could just peel the skin of a PU core, with the material perfectly attached to the skin, just tore it from the core itself.
    Those materials only belong in composites if you build a fridge out of it. The properties aren't good enough to provide enough strenght. If those will work, so would air in the same layup. How did you bond the PE, or was it nidacore or something?

  9. #48
    Addicted Cruiser hoch92000's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by cirrus View Post
    Skin buckling, compression failure, once I could just peel the skin of a PU core, with the material perfectly attached to the skin, just tore it from the core itself.
    Those materials only belong in composites if you build a fridge out of it. The properties aren't good enough to provide enough strenght. If those will work, so would air in the same layup. How did you bond the PE, or was it nidacore or something?
    Those are all issues to varying degree. Even with FG laminated wood cores, the glass tends to delam at flex points, at least on some of my builds. The biggest problem I've had has been skin buckling, as you say. Through trial and error, I've noted where the buckling occurs and reinforced those points. Fo example, there needs to be more glass just behind the trucks, where the twisting forces are severe, especially on dropthroughs. The failures and repairs are part of the fun.
    Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors. You must try them all before finding the one you like the best.

  10. #49
    Addicted Cruiser BgSurfer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    EPS/PU cores have been used in surfboards for decades. Failure is usually deck buckling but because of compression failure. I have easily peeled the glass skins off old longboard surfboards to cut them down for re-shaping. But they were fully intact boards and structurally sound before I stripped the glass off.

    The stringers in surfboards are structural I-beams. But many make stringerless boards for improved flex -- glassing schedules are adjusted accordingly. Another approach used to make stringerless surfboards with low density EPS (1.0-1.5 pcf) cores is glassed sandwich wood veneer construction also referred to as Compsand or WMD technique at Swaylocks -- these boards hold up very well. I saw a DIY post somewhere on the web that used a vacuum sandwich technique for a skateboard with a low density EPS core and balsa skins (+ cosmetic veneers).

    I recognize that thickness is a big factor in surfboard strength (directly proportional to the cube of thickness). However, surfboards are much longer than skateboards and, length affects flex. Nonetheless, surfboards caught in 25-foot closeout waves endure massive stress forces ("many tons" of water with at least class 5 whitewater turbulence). Surfboards do fail in these conditions -- but many more survive intact.

    Ken, an engineer who founded Segway Composites (EPS surfboard blanks) -- now American Blanks after he sold it, convinced me that 2-2.5 pcf EPS foam could be used for foam-core mountainboard and longboard-skate decks (0.5" thick foam) with the proper composite skin schedule. He liked the idea that core shapes could be hot-wired for a desired shape without pre-stressing the core by bending it for the desired shape. The composite skins minimize parallel surface movements relative to the core.

    A few years back a SF member, SandwichTech, indicated that 19-22 oz tri-axial per side, used for commercial boards (skis, snowboards, longboards), would be the way to go for foam cores/hollow cores. Thought Yan Poirier might have some recommendations -- always looking for multiple inputs.

    I want lighter and stiffer for my MB surf-style streetcarvers. I have found flex kills centrifugal/centripetal acceleration and speed for my tight cutbacks -- hard leans, slingshot acceleration and speed off the bottom of cutbacks are my favorite parts of the ride. I have been working on a stringer layup concept/method that I believe will reduce flex significantly. Maybe I will finally get around to making a few prototypes in 2014.

    EDIT: Found the link to the Instructables foam/veneer sandwich skateboard build, using 1.0 pcf EPS.

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Comp...oard/?ALLSTEPS

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    Last edited by BgSurfer; 12-21-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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  11. #50
    Addicted Cruiser bandaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Hmm, very interesting stuff about foamcores, I have a build I want to test out using some plastic and balsa, I'll see what materials I can get tomorrow and post up the layup plans.

    On another note, I would be interested to know if anyone uses/knows of a cheaper resin. Currently I am using Gurit SP 115, and get it wholesale price (about $180 for a 5L kit). Reason I use it is it's perfectly clear, UV stable and insanely strong. As my boards have a carbon finish, I need these properties. I hear west systems with the 207 is clear and UV resistant, but rumours are that it isn't perfectly so? So Yan, do you know a cheaper alternative to the gurit with the same/close enough properties?

  12. #51
    We build your board Concrete Kahuna AM Wood Skateboard Co's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by bandaro View Post
    Hmm, very interesting stuff about foamcores, I have a build I want to test out using some plastic and balsa, I'll see what materials I can get tomorrow and post up the layup plans.

    On another note, I would be interested to know if anyone uses/knows of a cheaper resin. Currently I am using Gurit SP 115, and get it wholesale price (about $180 for a 5L kit). Reason I use it is it's perfectly clear, UV stable and insanely strong. As my boards have a carbon finish, I need these properties. I hear west systems with the 207 is clear and UV resistant, but rumours are that it isn't perfectly so? So Yan, do you know a cheaper alternative to the gurit with the same/close enough properties?
    I've had very good results with Entropy, EcoPoxy and East systems.
    Then again, it will depend where you are and what you have access to.

  13. #52
    Addicted Cruiser BgSurfer's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    One of the most popular epoxy options among surfboard builders is Resin Research (RR) -- Kwik Kick goes off fastest. These are the RR epoxies used for surfboard building:

    "Resin Research Epoxies are specially formulated for building surfboards but are also suitable for other applications where a clear finish is desirable and the need exists for an epoxy that exhibits good UV resistant characteristics."

    "The Resin Research Surfboard Epoxy is available in three styles. The original 2000 Epoxy system (clear), the CE Epoxy which has an optical brightener (bluish tint) and a UV inhibitor, and the newest Kwik Kick Epoxy which looks like the CE but goes off quicker and becomes harder faster than any other surfboard epoxy on the market. This Epoxy system was developed by Greg Loehr and has many benefits; it is extremely easy to use, dries harder than Polyester, can be used on Polyurethane blanks, and is odorless. You must mix at a 2 to 1 (epoxy to hardener) ratio, also mix thoroughly."

    A 1.5 gallon kit can be purchased for US $104 retail (before shipping).
    Last edited by BgSurfer; 12-21-2013 at 02:46 PM.
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  14. #53
    Addicted Cruiser cirrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by hoch92000 View Post
    The failures and repairs are part of the fun.
    Definitely!

    Quote Originally Posted by bandaro View Post
    Hmm, very interesting stuff about foamcores, I have a build I want to test out using some plastic and balsa, I'll see what materials I can get tomorrow and post up the layup plans.

    On another note, I would be interested to know if anyone uses/knows of a cheaper resin. Currently I am using Gurit SP 115, and get it wholesale price (about $180 for a 5L kit). Reason I use it is it's perfectly clear, UV stable and insanely strong. As my boards have a carbon finish, I need these properties. I hear west systems with the 207 is clear and UV resistant, but rumours are that it isn't perfectly so? So Yan, do you know a cheaper alternative to the gurit with the same/close enough properties?
    Balsa is a great core material. It's cheap,and stronger than foam and most other cores.

    Gurit resins are some of the best. I use ampreg21 mostly, not intended for visual applications but very usable anyway, without the UV blocker of SP115. I planned on switching to SP115, but I'm switching to vacuum infusion.
    I've never used a west system resin that I liked. Expensive for relatively low quality. Pro-Set from the same company is a lot better. I don't know if there is a US distributor, but Sicomin has some good resin systems too. SR8500 for coating (wood), SR8200 for laminating fabrics, and SR1660 for high-temperature moulds and other applications. Good epoxy costs more than basic epoxy...

  15. #54
    Stoked! jamesporterdesign's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    hey i'm stuck I guess you may have answered this already but i'm looking to laminate veneer and fibreglass I want the fibreglass hidden inside the layers of veneer and need to know the most appropriate resin that can be used for making composites like this as the resin i'm using currently doesn't seem to penetrate the fibres of the fibreglass and the test boards just loose there shape within minutes of being used i need something runnier i guess but it needs to stick to wood still you know nowhere seems to give a straight answer least of all the companies selling the resins
    Thanks !!

  16. #55
    Addicted Cruiser bandaro's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    for internal bonds like that just about any epoxy resin (so a two part resin) will do the job. The join is internal so discolouration of the resin isn't a problem, nor UV stability. The resins just mentioned above will all do the trick.

    As for the the fibres being dry, are you rolling/squeegie-ing the fabric properly? I use a roller, lay your surface down, drizzle resin over, lay the glass on, more resin, then roll the **** out of it, making sure to push the resin around the board. The glass will turn from white to clear (thick glass won't go perfectly clear, but a significant change in colour will still happen) when it is properly wet out. I would spend 10 minutes rolling my uni carbon, just to be sure it has been fully covered and air bubbles rolled out, and I use a really runny resin (gurit sp115).

    Regarding the loss of concave, try leaving it in the press for 48 hours and see if that makes a difference, some fibres on the top surface going 90* (crossgrain) also help to keep a boards shape. Some light weave 50gsm plain/twill would work. How much pressure is it being pressed with?

    Hope these help, and any other suggestions guys?

  17. #56
    We build your board Concrete Kahuna AM Wood Skateboard Co's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesporterdesign View Post
    hey i'm stuck I guess you may have answered this already but i'm looking to laminate veneer and fibreglass I want the fibreglass hidden inside the layers of veneer and need to know the most appropriate resin that can be used for making composites like this as the resin i'm using currently doesn't seem to penetrate the fibres of the fibreglass and the test boards just loose there shape within minutes of being used i need something runnier i guess but it needs to stick to wood still you know nowhere seems to give a straight answer least of all the companies selling the resins
    Thanks !!
    First question would be what type of resin? Is it a laminating resin?
    Any laminating resin should work, West system, Entropy.. etc..

  18. #57
    Stoked! jamesporterdesign's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    borden resin uh191 is the resin that ive been using on the all wood laminating that ive been doing and that seems to be working fine for that but it dont work on fibreglass i just realised its urea fulmaldahide based resin can i use polyester resin to cut down cost or is there a good epoxy that is more affordable as i dont wanna have to fork out almost double the price if polyester resin is as good as ?? thanks!

  19. #58
    Fresh Fish kidAvid's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    No. Polyester resin is not as good as epoxy for... well most things. There's a reason its more expensive.

  20. #59
    Stoked! jamesporterdesign's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    ok then thanks i guess ill use epoxy lol but if im doing a 900mm long board about standard width using one layer of 800gsm fibreglass and 7 layers of wood veneer how much epoxy will i need roughly so i can work out how many boards i can make? even a rough idea would be good thanks

  21. #60
    Fresh Fish kidAvid's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will answer any questions about using composite fabrics in board building!

    My experience comes from other areas than skateboard pressing, so probably best to check with the skate dudes. For example , not having worked with maple veneers I can't say how much resin they suck. Will also depend on viscosity of resin. Glass layer you could weigh it and roughly say 1:1. But even then it depends on technique and layup schedule. Also consider weight of fill coat or finish coat on the outside of the board.

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